Rusty Greaves

Although this is an older thread, I am happy to see something about South American bows & arrows, a topic very important to my research interests and related to collections I have donated to museums in the US and Venezuela. Almost all South American bows & arrows are quite long, up to 2 m is quite common. The lanceolate arrowpoints are for large terrestrial game, most commonly peccaries. Even today most of these are made of wood or a species of New World bamboo (probably what these were made from) rather than steel because it is not uncommon to lose the quarry, and the arrow. Metal can be scarce, and arrows that are commonly lost are still made of more replaceable materials. The barbed hardwood point (probably a species of palm heartwood) are used for monkeys. Monkeys will try to remove the arrows, and this is why they have multiple backward directed barbs, to make that difficult and to make a more grievous wound as they worry the arrow. Often folks will cut a slightly deeper notch a short distance from the most distal barbs so that they break off in the animal as they try to get them out of their bodies. These long points can be recovered and are re-trimmed to sharpen the point and continue using them until the foreshaft is too short. A new point is then inserted into the cultivated arrowcane. The use of what appears to be native cotton windings suggests these were made by agricultural populations, who also probably grew the arrowcanes themselves. The monkey arrows and peccary arrows indicate these were from a tropical rainforest group. None of these would likely have employed curare, that is almost exclusively used for blowgun darts which are delicate and quiet poison delivery systems for arboreal game. The muscle relaxation of curare not only suffocates the animal by relaxing the diaphragm, but also prevents monkeys' tails from remaining coiled around branches as they die, so that they can be recovered after they drop to the ground. The 2 arrows on the far right of the 2nd image have sharpened hardwood foreshaft points that were probably for birds. Bird arrows with blunt and expanded ends are common for stunning birds who are hunted for their feathers in order to minimize damage and blood staining of their plumage. The arrow 3rd from the right on this image exhibits a broken foreshaft, possibly another example of a pointed bird arrow or for a lanceolate point. These 3 wooden arrows are unlikely to be for bow & arrow fishing as these normally have at least one barb to prevent fish from slipping off of such smooth points. The illustrations below are arrowpoints from my fieldwork with Savanna Pumé hunters & gatherers living the open neotropical savannas in west-central Venezuela that are part of the Orinoco Plains (llanos). These examples are among the dozens I have donated to the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology as part of a collection of over 1,300 artifacts from my research. This shows most of the currently used arrow forms employed by the Savanna Pumé. From top to bottom, it shows: a cold hammered steel nail point that is squared to produce a wound that tears rather than a round hole which will seal up a bit (as known in forensics that an ice pick wound does nor do as much damages as a screwdriver), this point is used for small terrestrial game such as armadillos, lizards, or rabbits, and some birds, it has a small proximal barb visible at the right where the windings end; a fishing arrow also made from a steel nail that is heated, hammered to shape, and then cut to produce the distal barb, a proximal barb is barely visible as well; a heated, hammered, and shaped lanceolate point made from worn-out machetes or other steel tools for terrestrial game such as the tamandua anteater, the great anteater, deer, or other much more rarely captured animals such as peccaries or tapirs. I have been on defensive war pray trips in response to seeing prowling strangers near the dry season camps where men nocked two of these kinds of arrows on their bows and stationed themselves away from the edge of camp. Considering the likely intruders were FARC guerrillas armed with automatic weapons, these parties only expected to provide time for the rest of the community to escape, not to defeat these folks who sometimes travelled deep into Venezuela during the dry season when long-distance foot travel was practical for non-indigenous folks; a wooden point for hunting birds; and a caiman harpoon arrow that has a detachable point and line to allow the animal some play before being dispatched. The cord is made from moriche palm leaf fiber. Scale in cm. An illustration of the individual Savanna Pumé arrowpoints and their foreshafts, which are inserted into the long arrowcane mainshaft. From top to bottom: the squared small game point; the distally barbed fishing point; the foreshaft showing a slot (not cut through the entire foreshaft) for fitting the above two point styles into; an example of the small game point seated in the foreshaft with a tree resin and wrapped in windings made from the leaf fibers of a wild pineapple relative; the same kind of foreshaft assembly with final coating of tree resin & charcoal, and a coating of resin more proximally to assist with adherence in the mainshaft; a heated and hammered steel lanceolate point for large game; the typical short foreshaft for lanceolate points showing the double tongued carving of its slot. Scale in cm. Fletching of the Savanna Pumé arrows. From top to bottom: the radial fletching of a lanceolate point, radial fletching is made from a feather split in half through the vein and attached as 4 pieces of fletching around the proximal end of the arrow, as are modern competition arrows, providing the best flight characteristics; an example of tangential fletching for a small game or fishing arrow where a piece of intact feather is simply laid againts each of 2 sides side of the arrow, this example has striping of tree resin that identifies the arrow maker; another example of tangential fletching without any markings. All windings and the nock are made from tree resin and the wild bromeliad fiber shown used for foreshafts above in the 2nd photo, then coated with resin and charcoal and smoothed by hand with face oil. Scale in cm. An example of a Savanna Pumé caiman harpoon point and cordage set for a variant where the point is seated on a long pole used instead of an arrow, for larger and more dangerous caimans. The cordage is moriche palm leaf fiber, the steel point was made by hearing in fire and hammering to shape, the barb cut with an axe edge, and attached to the cordage with tree resin and wild bromeliad fiber. Scale in cm.

While scrimshaw is best know for the lovely decorated sperm whale teeth, all art on whalebone, ivory, or other on-board materials can certainly be considered scrimshaw.

The surface texture in the 3rd photo of your July 22, 2016 post certainly looks like bone. I did a moderate amount of scrimshaw as a kid, visited collections, and have done lot of work with bone in my adult archaeological work. Some whalebone was used to manufacture a range of everyday items (clothespins, swifts for winding wool, knife handles, etc) by scrimshandering whalers, but the density is quite different from the bone of terrestrial animals. Whale ivory (this would be too broad for walrus ivory) would be much denser and smooth, while the subcortical bone of land animals will exhibit the kinds of textures seen in that 3rd image. Plaque shapes such as this example would be quite unusual to cut from whale ivory. The thinness of the bone in the 4th image and the display image of October 6 also suggests it also from a terrestrial animal. My suspicion is beef bone, probably the humerus (upper forelimb) that has a broad area at the proximal (near the body) end.

I am an archaeologist, and please keep in mind that antiquity laws in some countries do prohibit trade in some authentic artifacts if their provenience suggests they have been obtained illegally from excavations, and are not from older private collections that predate the establishment of any such laws. This can pertain to the import of such items into Europe, Asia, and the New World, as well as the export from countries that protect their antiquities. There is a brisk trade in modern fake ushabti, they are very easy to manufacture from modern or even ancient molds. It is uncommon for collectors to be prosecuted for small items, but the trade in antiquities certainly fuels larger scale destruction of archaeological sites. IS has used the sale of antiquities from looted museums and archaeological sites as a source of its revenue to support their insurgency. It is difficult to evaluate an item without physical examination. Although I am not an Egyptologist, I maintain an interest in ancient Egyptian archaeology. This item has a few peculiar aspects: the body proportions are uncommonly "lumpy", heavy in the butt and feet (in lateral view) that is uncommon in ushabti from pre-Greek periods. The size of the lips in both the profile and especially the lateral view seem suspect, and the facial form is a bit odd. It could be a late Greek period example (artisans approximated ancient styles with variable success at this time), or an inexpensive ushabti (ushabti are essentially folks who will do the work for the dead in the afterlife, and were purchased by those who could afford to hope for an eternity without work after death) that a less affluent, but still well-to-do, ancient Egyptian could get for their tomb furnishings. I would say there is a 75% chance this is a modern market item and not an ancient example.

The Condecoraciones de Venezuela website also states that there was some variation in the forms of the full-sized awards for the Orden del Liberator, because of the number of different manufacturers. The website states that the 1922 decree especially specified in detail the designs needed for standardizing the forms of the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd class versions of the Order that had been subject to a large number of differences in their design interpretation by each manufacturer. This situation is likely to have been even more variable among miniatures (certainly evident in the examples from your collection), sometimes manufactured by other companies than those making the full-sized insignia. You might wish to check out a thread titled "Miniatures of the Middle East & Arab World" that was started by Owain (oamatme) on 6 December, 2017 under the "Middle East & Arab States" section of this "Rest of the World: Medals & Militaria" Forum discussing miniatures, although it is for a different area. He, and some of the contributors, especially 922F, are much more knowledgeable than I will ever be about variation in miniatures. Owain started his thread in response to a couple questions I had about miniatures starting on 5 December, 2017 on a thread I began about the Egyptian Order of Ismail ("Question about the Order of Ismail/Nishan al-Ismail", started on 7 November, 2017, under Middle East & Arab States) and responses from Owain and 922F. Some of their insights are likely relevant to understanding the variation in your items.

I am traveling, but a quick survey of the Spanish language site Condecoraciones de Venezuela (http://condecoracionesdevenezuela.com/civiles-nacionales-orden-del-libertador/) suggests that the bust of Bolivar faces to the left is a pre-1922 versions of all classes of this order while post 1922 versions have Bolivar facing to the right.

Thanks for illustrating the reverse of the Khedive era miniatures and the the Republic awards. The reverse of the Order of Ismail miniature does show better the horizontal bar on the suspension element below the crown that is distinct from the examples I have illustrated on 6 December and yesterday. Are you excited by the return of commercial cinemas in the coming year?

This is an illustration of the only other probably authentic miniature example I have found a photo of on the internet. Probable authentic miniature of the Order of Ismail, Class unknown. This example shows a different form of the attachment between the body of the badge and the Khedive crown for suspension from the first miniature I illustrated on 6 December. I enlarged the image of Owain's example in the miniature group shown above today, and that also appears to show a slight variation from this example in the configuration the crown support. Just trying to document some of the variations among authentic examples of the miniature for this order. Owain, is yours slightly different from this one and is there any maker's mark on your example? (https://www.flickr.com/photos/kelisli/3052094604)

Owain, thanks for illustrating these miniatures. I am interested to see your example of the Order of Ismail with the Khedive crown showing a slightly variant form in its attachment to the body of the miniature badge than the example I illustrated at the top of my 6 December post. Is the dark spot on the ribbon wear/staining or do you think there may have been a device attached to identify the class of the Order for this miniature?

I still hope that someone may have some information they are willing to pass along about Massonnet Edit, I'm also making some inquiries among some specifically numismatic information groups, but wanted to post a good images of the obverse & reverse of this image I recently came across. The photos probably have been edited with a graphics program, but it is a high-resolution image with good details of this medal. Image of the obverse & reverse of the Abbas Hilmi II table medal commemorating his coronation and return from the Hegaz. This image is from an auction listing of 12 October, 2015 through La Galerie Numismatique, lot 182. In the catalogue it is misidentified as "Fouad I King of Egypt and Sudan Medal for Sultan Hassan Hassan Mosque" c 1922. This site also identifies the lower left obverse inscription of "Massonnet Edit." The starting price (300 EUR) and realized price (600 EUR) for this medal seem low by comparison with other Abbas Hilmi II medals on website auction sites, this may partly be due to the mis-attribution of this medal and not realizing its possible value or scarcity. (https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=2277&category=45886&lot=1928365). I have also recently found the eBay listing of one of these medals that I referred to on 25 March, 2017 archived through the Worthpont.com website (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/egypt-gilded-bronze-medal-b29-115277729). The images of the obverse & reverse are low-resolution, but the eBay listing does also note the "Massonnet Edit" signature, identifying it as belonging to a "famous 19th century French engraver". The listing for the medal includes minimal information, the seller stated they did not know much about the medal, and the 22, July 2010 auction sale price reflects that - $76 (how I wish I had been doing this research in 2010!).

I still hope that someone may have some information they are willing to pass along about Massonnet Edit, I'm also making some inquiries among some specifically numismatic information groups, but wanted to post a good images of the obverse & reverse of this image I recently came across. The photos probably have been edited with a graphics program, but it is a high-resolution image with good details of this medal. Image of the obverse & reverse of the Abbas Hilmi II table medal commemorating his coronation and return from the Hegaz. This image is from an auction listing of 12 October, 2015 through La Galerie Numismatique, lot 182. In the catalogue it is misidentified as "Fouad I King of Egypt and Sudan Medal for Sultan Hassan Hassan Mosque" c 1922. This site also identifies the lower left obverse inscription of "Massonnet Edit." The starting price (300 EUR) and realized price (600 EUR) for this medal seem low by comparison with other Abbas Hilmi II medals on website auction sites, this may partly be due to the mis-attribution of this medal and not realizing its possible value or scarcity. (https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=2277&category=45886&lot=1928365). I have also recently found the eBay listing of one of these medals that I referred to on 25 March, 2017 archived through the Worthpont.com website (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/egypt-gilded-bronze-medal-b29-115277729). The images of the obverse & reverse are low-resolution, but the eBay listing does also note the "Massonnet Edit" signature, identifying it as belonging to a "famous 19th century French engraver". The listing for the medal includes minimal information, the seller stated they did not know much about the medal, and the 22, July 2010 auction sale price reflects that - $76 (how I wish I had been doing this research in 2010!).

I have found a couple of good quality images of the 4th Class (Officer) award for this Order while rummaging on my computer to try and locate dimensions for this badge. The breast badge is suspended on a ribbon with a rosette and is worn on the left side. This form of the badge is smaller than the breast badges of the 1st and 2nd class versions of this award. The description from this auction site identifies the badge's dimensions as 74 mm tall x 55 mm wide. The only examples of possible lapel insignia that I have found are for this class of the order of Ismail. Rosettes without ribbons are occasionally identified or illustrated in some sources for the Officer class of the Order of Ismail. I have inadvertently made a few errors on captions of previous images of this award class. On 13 November I identified the 4th class award as a chest badge on a ribbon with a rosette in text above the image, but my caption below the photo from Flickr called it a neck badge. Oops. On 15 November in my description of this badge I identified it as the 3rd Class and did the same for the caption of another image of this badge from Flickr in its presentation case from Tewfiq Bichay. Didn't catch those until my editing window time was done. Have been holding off on corrections until I could provide additional info on the Officer's badge and better images. Image of the Officer (4th Class) breast badge of the Order of Ismail made by Lattes, dimensions are 74 mm X 55 mm (https://www.coins-la-galerie-numismatique.com/auction-xxix/order-ismail) Close-up image of the Officer (4th Class) breast badge of the Order of Ismail showing good detail of the Khedive crown and the other suspension elements for attachment to the ribbon (https://www.coins-la-galerie-numismatique.com/auction-xxix/order-ismail)

Well, lot 140 is a chimera with an Ethiopian crown & cross, some arm elements to the star reminiscent of the Order of Ismail and possible borders more similar to what you have illustrated, and a lot of magical unrealism thrown in.

I have posted some of my limited information on miniatures of the Egyptian Order of Ismail on my other thread about this order, and apologize for duplicating that information here. However, this information follows the topic of Owain's post and may find more parties interested in miniatures more readily on this thread. Below are images and the information I've come across on possible miniatures for this order. Probable authentic miniature order of Ismail, 30 x 20 mm, identified on the La Galerie Numismatique website as as "Knight's Cross" which should probably be the Officers' breast badge if it is the 4th Class. However, without the correct ribbon identification devices for the class that Owain mentions, it may not be possible to identify these miniatures to the class they belonged. I have seen 2 other images of this miniature on auction sites and one on Picssr that is part of a private collection. Note that all other images of this miniature I have seen have the Khedive crown for suspension-the example below from the Spink & Son December 4 auction resembles the workmanship and abbreviated design elements of this example, but lacks this Khedive crown. This is the only form of the miniature I have seen with "accurate" details of the insignia. (https://www.coins-la-galerie-numismatique.com/auction-33/order-ismail-1) Possible authentic miniatures of the Order of Ismail, Class unknown. The badge on the R resembles the miniature badge above from La Galerie Numismatique and other lower resolution photos I have seen of this miniature (except for the lack of the Khedive crown for suspension present on all other similar miniatures). I have never seen other images of the star (L) before. If I understand correctly, Owain commented in my thread on the Order of Ismail on 5 December that such pairs might be unusual (suspect?) as only the badge is normally the insignia for the miniature. The badge form similar to the image on the R (also see full-sized award examples below) is used for all classes of the Order of Ismail insignia except the Commander (3rd Class) that only uses the neck badge with the star "resembling" the miniature on the L (again see the full-sized award example below). Could the star be the miniature for the 3rd Class award? Or is that in contradiction with Owain's knowledge that a single insignia is used for all miniatures with ribbon device distinctions to identify the class of orders? The workmanship and design elements of the star are much less correct than those of the badge. The star has proportion problems compared to the authentic larger sash (Grand Cordon, 1st Class) or neck badges (Grand Officer and Commander, 2nd & 3rd Classes) of this configuration (star too small & crown too large), and very poor workmanship shown in the enamel of the star's rays, no enamel coloring of the wreath around the central boss, a "gold" center with incorrect enamel distribution, an awkwardly rendered cipher, and no enamel colors on the crown, etc. Star with crown = 20 mm; The badge measures = 13 mm x 22mm. Materials identified for both as silver gilt and enamel. No manufacturer identified. Lot 267 of Spink & Son auction of 4 December, 2017. Manufacturer unknown. (ttps://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/spink/catalogue-id-srspi10156/lot-bb1a7884-22e6-4504-97db-a83200bb0ca9) Alleged miniature of the Order of Ismail. Extremely incorrect configuration. This example also violates Owain's position that a single insignia normally represents the miniature for an Order. Identified as silver-gilt, stamped, with cabochon in center (instead of enameled boss bearing the inscription "ISMAIL"). The reverse is stamped with the silver grades as "925". 25 mm including the crown suspension X 16 mm. No manufacturer identified. Lot 140 of an auction by Spink & Son, 4 December, 2017. (https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/spink/catalogue-id-srspi10156/lot-bd1c4e4c-7dc1-4560-a3c7-a83200ba36e7) Alleged miniature star (although not described as such on the website) identified as the 3rd Class Commander of the Order of Ismail. As noted for the first & second images, without the ribbon designation it is problematic to determine a class for this possible miniature. The ribbon also appears problematic for a miniature. There are several differences in the design of this star compared with full-sized authentic pieces. The same comment about whether the miniature badge would be one insignia (the form of the badge seen in the first photo here) mentioned before is relevant here. No dimensions provided, no information on any maker's mark, ribbon is identified as "original". This image is from a website that has these medals "in stock" and is pricing them at 1,500€ (https://www.falera-et-orbis.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=345) Inexpensive alleged miniature of the Order of Ismail available on eBay. Materials identified as copper, brass, gilt. size not identified, date of manufacture is 2015. No markings on the reverse. Price range identified between $22-$26, from Ukraine. Surprisingly better details than some other more expensive online offerings, but was a star ever the insignia of the miniature for this Order? (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Miniature-for-Order-of-Ismail-Kingdom-of-Egypt/302536806062?hash=item4670994eae:g:LUsAAOSwVCRZdMBd) For comparison with the miniatures above, this is the full-sized insignia of the Grand Officer (2nd Class) of the Order of Ismail showing the 2 insignia used for each of the four classes of this Order. The star above is the neck badge worn on a ribbon, the chest badge below is worn on the right side. For the 1st Class (Grand Cordon) the star is attached to the decorative bow on the sash and the chest badge is worn on the left. The insignia for the 3rd Class (Commander) is the smaller star worn as a neck badge. The 4th Class (Officer) badge resembles the lower badge in the above photo and is suspended on a ribbon with a rosette using the same Khedive crown ornament as seen on the smaller star, and is worn on the left side. The Officer's badge is smaller than other versions of the insignia, but I have not yet found its dimensions. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/kelisli/8844318688)

Attached is a beautiful image of the Grand Cordon (1st Class) of the Order of Ismail. This is the only photo I have come across that shows the sash folded in what may be approximately its proper configuration in the presentation case (see the image of the unfolded sash from eMedals that I posted in this thread on November 13), although I am not completely certain of this. Grand Cordon (1st Class) of the Order of Ismail. This photo shows what is likely the correct configuration of the sash in the presentation case, breast badge (above) and star badge (below) suspended from the decorative bow. This example is identified as being in its presentation case, although I am unsure whether this photo was taken with it in that case. The auction site identifies it incorrectly as the "Knight's Grand Cross". The manufacturer is J. Lattes, the height of the star suspended for the bow is 62 mm (including the crown) x 80 mm wide (eMedals, JOMSA vol 57, No 4, 2006, and other sources identify it as 82 mm wide), the chest badge is 80 mm in diameter (eMedals, the same JOMSA article, and other sources identify it as 84 mm). The length of the sash is not identified, but eMedals states that the sash is 100 mm in width with two 9 mm-wide edge stripe inset 2 mm from each edge. This example shows a "third" red strip on the R side because the other loop of the sash is showing from below. This comes from Lot 28 of an auction on 4 December, 2017 by Spink & Son with an expected sale price of 2500-3000 GBP. (https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/spink/catalogue-id-srspi10156/lot-3b07acb4-542f-4733-93a3-a83200b99892)

Many thanks to 922F and Owain for your information about miniatures. I am quite grateful for 922F's statement about ELM, I had heard that the Order of Ismail was occasionally still being awarded in exile (although the government's sponsorship of the Order ended in 1952 after the Revolution). In response I would like to attach images of all the miniatures I have run across in the last few months. Some are faithful to the award's design, others much less so. I am very interested in comments by the interested and knowledgable GMIC members on these forms of miniatures. Probable authentic miniatures of the Order of Ismail, Class unknown. This resembles the miniature badge I illustrated above on 5 December. I have seen a photo of one other such badge that is part of a private collection. I have never seen other images of the star before. Star with crown = 20 mm; badge = 13 mm x 22mm, Material identified as silver gilt and enamel. No manufacturer identified. Lot 267 of Spink & Son auction of 4 December, 2017. Manufacturer unknown. (ttps://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/spink/catalogue-id-srspi10156/lot-bb1a7884-22e6-4504-97db-a83200bb0ca9) Alleged miniature of the Order of Ismail. Extremely incorrect configuration. Identified as silver-gilt, stamped, with cabochon in center (instead of enameled boss bearing the inscription "ISMAIL"). The reverse is stamped with the silver grades as "925". 25 mm including the crown suspension X 16 mm. No manufacturer identified. Lot 140 of an auction by Spink & Son, 4 December, 2017. (https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/spink/catalogue-id-srspi10156/lot-bd1c4e4c-7dc1-4560-a3c7-a83200ba36e7) Alleged miniature star (although not described as such on the website) identified as the 3rd Class Commander of the Order of Ismail. There are several differences in the design of this star compared with full sized authentic pieces. No dimensions provided, no information on any maker's mark, ribbon is identified as "original". This image is from a website that has these medals "in stock" and is pricing them at 1,500€ (https://www.falera-et-orbis.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=345) Inexpensive alleged miniature of the Order of Ismail available on eBay. Materials identified as copper, brass, gilt. size not identified, date of manufacture is 2015. No markings on the reverse. Price range identified between $22-$26, from Ukraine. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Miniature-for-Order-of-Ismail-Kingdom-of-Egypt/302536806062?hash=item4670994eae:g:LUsAAOSwVCRZdMBd)

Attached is a high resolution image of the recently advertised judges' badge from the Spink & Son auction of 4 December, 2017. This image has excellent detail of the design elements of this badge (note especially the detail of the cipher (?) on the tughra at the inferior portion of the drapery. High resolution image of an Egyptian judges badge for either the Mixed Courts or Native Courts on Spink & Son auction of 4 December, 2017. 116 X 85 mm, silver gilt, pawnbroker's mark on reverse. it is unclear if this is a silver gilt badge or a worn example of one of the gold gilt badges. The distribution of the gold on the photo could be tarnish or worn gold gilt aspects of the design. An individual from the medal dept. of Spink & Son stated there is probably traces of silver gilt on the reverse of the badge, but did not confirm whether any gold gilt is visible on the obverse. Expected price was between 1000-2000 GBP. (https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/spink/catalogue-id-srspi10156/lot-63685e70-7557-48b1-aabf-a83200b99d8c)

Owain, Many thanks for responding to my inquiry with this post. This is another fascinating facet to learning about these awards and medals. Your expertise is greatly appreciated in helping my inquiries about the Order of Ismail and the Mixed Courts/Native Courts judges badges, and making this such an interesting website for research on a broad array of awards. Rusty

I apologize for my profound phaleristics ignorance, but I do not know what the specific role of a medal editeur is. Can someone please explain to me what role Massonnet Edit. is likely to have played in designing this medal, and how that is articulated into the manufacture of this medal by Tewfik Bichay? I have other information that indicated Bichay did produce this commemorative medal. I have had poor luck on any internet searches about Massonnet Edit, and do not have access to a good phalereistics library at the moment.

I apologize for my profound phaleristics ignorance, but I do not know what the specific role of a medal editeur is. Can someone please explain to me what role Massonnet Edit. is likely to have played in designing this medal, and how that is articulated into the manufacture of this medal by Tewfik Bichay? I have had poor luck on any internet searches about Massonnet Edit, and do not have access to a good phalereistics library at the moment.

Owain, As I always I am most grateful for your insights, I am not a collector but interested in finding out about these awards. Are miniatures (at least in the Arab world) worn with more everyday dress on different occasions than opportunities for sporting full insignia? I'd appreciate anything you have time to share on this. The illustration below shows one of a couple examples I have seen of miniatures that are most similar to the full-sized insignia. Some differences are apparent in the metals, level of detail on the rays of the enameled star, the central boss with the calligraphic ornamentation of "ISMAIL", as well as workmanship. This is similar to the illustration of one of the 2 badges on lot 267 of the Spink & Son auction I mentioned the other day, with some apparently unwarranted criticism. miniature order of Ismail, 30 x 20 mm, identified as "Knight's Cross" which should probably be the Officers' breast badge, 4th Class. (https://www.coins-la-galerie-numismatique.com/auction-33/order-ismail-1). This is the only form of the miniature I have seen with "accurate" details of the insignia

Owain, Many thanks for taking the time and looking at the maker's marks and providing that information about the relationship between Tewfiq Bichay and Lattes. I have recently been trying to tidy up some questions from my research on this, and you have helped tremendously. I have been looking at some of the overtly fraudulent miniatures for the Order of Ismail, and a couple of other problematic miniatures. One of the medal dept. staff at Spink & Son defended the listed miniatures I complained about in my Dec 1 post, writing that the design was a bit different than full sized pieces. The minis have some elements of the authentic pieces, but I am unaware of any miniatures that were part of the authentic awards. All have problematic workmanship. It's one thing if there were sold as inexpensive knockoffs (there is one eBay site that sells a cheap trinket they identify as made in 2015 and costs $26), but the high price on some of these really is vexing! I intend to show some of these false examples in the near future once I can take some time with the auction images. Gratefully, Rusty

In looking over images I have found, I came across an anomalous example with a maker's mark that is not J. Lattes. This is from an auction of November 24, 2012 that illustrates the reverse of both the neck star and chest badge for the Grand Officer class (2nd Class ) of this award. The description on the SIXBID/La Galerie Numismatique identifies the maker's mark on the reverse of both these medals as "St. Dionay" (SIXBID/La Galerie Numismatique adds a question mark regarding the name on this mark-not sure why). These are the only examples I have seen of what appear to be correctly designed examples of the Order of Ismail showing makers' marks that were not made by J. Lattes of Paris. The images is not of high resolution, but the form of the manufacture's mark is clearly not Lattes. The example of an Officer grade (4th Class-I inadvertently listed it as 3rd class in that post) chest badge on a ribbon with rosetteI illustrated on Nov 15, 2017 in a Tewfick Bichay case does not have any accompanying images of the reverse to show its maker's mark. Does anyone know this medal manufacturer and whether they would have made medals between ~1915-1952? Is this a probable recent copy? Images for set of Grand Officer Class (2nd Class) insignia for the Order of Ismail. These images from an auction of 24 November 2012 describe the maker's mark on the reverse of both these medals as "St. Dionay". SIXBID/La Galerie Numismatique adds a question mark regarding the name on this mark-not sure why. (https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=515&category=11656&lot=539476) The image below is from the the modern medal manufacturer ELM in Singapore and suggests they either repair or may manufacture replicas of historic medals including the Order of Ismail. image of Order of Ismail breast badge that may be a high quality modern reproduction shown on the "Gallery" portion of the website for ELM medallists in Singapore (http://elm.com.sg/fr/orders-decorations-medals/orders-decorations/)

The inscription is the signature of "MASSONNET · EDIT · ", the well known French medal editeur.