BlackcowboyBS

yes Daniel you are right, I mixed these numbers up, yours are correct!

12 hours ago, Trooper_D said:

I certainly have to agree with you, BlackcowboyBS, that really is a most beautiful medal! Do you know the significance of the ring of eight stars, by any chance?

Hi Trooper, that's a fantastic question and I have to confess that I don't know the answer. In the documents in the archiv of Wolfenbuettel regarding the life saving medal there was no information regarding this topic. For other medals you could find drafts and letters with discussions on the design and how they should be changed, but none on this one. So we may have to guess.

1. the medal bar shown above shows the revers side of the lsm, most of the bars that I know of have this medal mounted that way, I guess it is because this side is extremly beautyfull. 
2. The revers shows the goddess nike with a leave of laurel putting her feet on a sea worm and showing upwards to the stars with her second hand. One has to know, that allmost every lsm being awarded were given to people who saved other from drowning. So this is the symbol the sea worm stands for. 
3. I think that the stars positioned to form a ring is a symbol for perfectness and maybe the cutter of this medal chose the number of eight stars because then the size of the stars fits best in this ring. In the flag of the EU we have 12 and this number has a rich history and meaning in many religions. The symbol how I read this medal is: By saving somebodys life you reach out to the stars. because it is the perfect deed.
4. Take a look at this hidden symbol on the avers side of the lsm from Brunswick, nobody knows the meaning of this either. Is this the sign from the original designer of the die? It looks like the greek gamma, in latin it would be a C. The meaning of it? 

1 hour ago, saschaw said:

A posthumous award sounds very unlikely to me. I'm not 100 % sure but think it was not possible at all in Prussia, or at least highly unusual. I cannot help with the promotion dates though, sorry.

 

 

True! Only in the beginning of 1813 there were few posthumously IC2 awards, after that I have never heard or read of any more again. 

12 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

Yes, right.

 

If I remember correctly,  about 5.000 EK2 on the combatants ribbon were handed out for merits at home.

 

Best,

Daniel 

As far as I remember only 5000 EK2 on the white 'n black ribbon were awarded during ww1 and 10 times more in the aftermath of the war.

8 minutes ago, Kvart said:

Ok, I see. But the non-combatant ribbon for the EKII then? Was that only awarded to civilians?

No, but mostly yes! 

Well I can just tell you, that he didn't recieved anything from Brunswick regarding HdL.

I agree with you, that the ribbon of the St Gregory the Great does indeed looks pretty much the same, so your Major Rauthe is another possibility. Good to know, I would have bought it and would have believed having a ribbon from Brunswick! 

HI Sascha you are welcome. And your wish shall be my command, here are three photos of the life saving medal of Brunswick, to me the most beautyfull medal af all German states. I guess you may recognize this medal bar. 

The third photo shows the case in which they were awarded. 

@webr55 I will have a look in my lists of the life saving medal and the orders of Henry the Lion, if there are any matches for people who got both. I know at least two names which have gotten a lsm and some HdL awards. But both had different medal bars, so these two can be ignored. 

On 28/01/2022 at 21:48, Zulu_00 said:

My mate says it's fake in all likelihood, he says its against their Islamic code. He fought them for two years so I'm inclined to take his word on it.

I do believe it to be false as well, but it was a good story in the middle of the night.

10 hours ago, saschaw said:

This one, being foreign, is actually off topic here, but the Ottoman "Tahlisiye Madalyasi", instituted in 1859, was awarded to so many Germans, especially marines, it might deserve its place here anyway.

 

Like the Bavarian medal I posted before, it could be awarded several times, but unlike it, these Ottoman medals would have different ribbons: red for the first, green for the second and white for the third award. For four (or more?) lifesavings, it would have a striped ribbon of the mentioned colours.

 

Or at least: that's what I found on the internet... it's surprising I ususally see them green ribboned, not red!

 

 

HI Sascha,

great post! I love life saving medals and I am allways tempted to start a collection on them, every medal tells a great story! 

Talking about the ribbons of the Ottoman "Tahlisiye Madalyasi" I guess that you mixed things up, the first deed was awarded with this medal on the green ribbon, the second got red, the third is white and the fourth is the striped one. See the photo that our member @demir posted here. I guess that the color green refers directly to the prohet Mohammed he and his heirs were the only ones who are allowed to wear green turbans. 

Please have a look at this link here, it shows an article with an interview of Paul Krecklow. 

I am more than sceptical, I think I spot a cast.

On 26/06/2005 at 22:56, Paul C said:

I purchased from Detlev Niemann's Friday update the 4 medal Hannover bar. It contains the following medals:

 

1. Hannover. Military medal 1841-1866 "Behning"

2. Langensalza medal "F.Behning"

3. Campaign medal 1870-71 f?r comb.

4. Centenaermedal

 

The first two medals are engraved on the rim to F. Behning. Any one have a Hannover State and Court book and can provide any information on this guy?

Hi Paul,

it must be a great medal bar. Medal bars with two or even more medals from Hannover are pretty rare! In the Kingdom of Hannover it was pretty common for long time to wear all medals side by side on the chest but nocht bundled on a bar. All meals were namen in Hannover like in GB. So your bar tells us the following story:

F. Behning was a NCO in the army of Hannover, served there for 16 years and got the wilhelm medal for this, then he was at the battle of Langensalza, recieved that medal and didn't left the army after the occupation of Hannover, fought in the German Franco war and then worked in some kind of official burreau, so he got the centenard. As he isn't wearing the 25 years long service cross for nco's he must have left the army before reaching this. 

I would love to see a photo of this bar! 

PS: I haven't found F. Behning in the Hof and Staatshandbücher from Hannover, but this doesn't mean a thing, because there only very few nco's to be found in it. With officers we would have more luck.

+ 1 for the mvk ribbon

After the war by a Kriegerverein in Hamburg

Thanks Gentlemen, for bringing up this old thread again, it fits very well to my own post from yesterdays find. Maybe an admin could merge these posts together, so that we have one post dealing with this questions. I won't mind, if my posting is merged into this one. 

with Dr. Reimer and the belgian nurse Marthe Mathilde Cnockaert we have gotten two new candidates for a woman being awarded with the IC2!

Gentlemen,

it has been discussed since years 'n years, if there had been iron cross awards to women in WW1 and 2. Well at least I have found a very interesting short article in a newspaper from Austria from 1915 claiming that at least 3 Germany ladies haven been awarded with the cross of iron for bravery deeds! The Newspaper is called Wiener Hausfrauen and you might translate this to: The housewives of Vienna! To be honnest I can't tell you how reliable a newspaper with the Name: The Housewives of Vienna is, but in issue no. 567 from 7th of february 1915 they reported that 3 German Ladies had been awarded with the IC2.

The Names are:

• Elfriede Scherhans (nurse)
• Frida Gessert (nurse)
• Dr. Reimer (chauffeur)

The first two were awarded for being nurses with no fear and being extraordinary brave, the last one for being a chauffeur for a division on the eastern front.

In the same issue the newspapers presented a photo of Elisabeth Lorenz who was awarded the golden merit cross on the ribbon of the bravery medal of Austria. She was married to a doctor who volunteered for working in a field hospital. She followed him with a special permission of the archduchess Blanka and drove a car to collect the wounded soldiers even under hostile fire! (Issue 564 from 3rd of january 1915)

As said, I have no clue about the trustworthieness of the two small articles from this austrian newspaper, but nevertheless I am amazed about this finding and hope that you are as well. 

Here you can find the entry of von Manteuffel in the list of Brunswick, he got his swords not for bravery in the field but due to the common practice that military men got the swords to their decoration especially higher grades. So his award date is 25th of april 1881 for his grandcross with swords.

PS: I love that old photo, that's a beamer! 

4 hours ago, Wild Card said:

A note in Nimmergut states "1865 gab es 44 Inhaber des Ernst August-Kreuzes".

 

I cannot say if this means that as of 1865, a total of 44 crosses had been awarded or as of 1865 there were 44 surviving holders out of a higher number of total awarded.

 

Regards,

 

Wild Card

Thanks Chris,

for this information, I don't have the Nimmergut in my library yet, ought to do that soon. (PS have sent you an Email)

I can at least show a very rare photograph of a Hannoverian General who wears the Ernst August Cross for 50 years of service! I will show here only the part of the photo where you can clearly spot the cross with the crown above. On the whole photo you see much more orders and medals of Hannover on his chest, but I will show this completly in my book and not before. I hope you don't mind that I keep some things secret until the book is published! 

4 hours ago, Allan J Woodliffe said:

Regarding ODM of Hannover: 

 

ERNST AUGUSTUS CROSS. CREATED AUGUST 1845 FOR 50 YEARS’ SERVICE

Does anyone know how many of these long service crosses were awarded?

Would I be correct in assuming that they were only awarded 1845 to 1866 when Hannover was annexed by Prussia?

Where would be the best source to try to obtain one?

 

Thanks,

Allan

 

Good questions! trying to answer them:

a) not known to me yet, but there can't be many

b) true in 99.9 % off the awards

c) I would like to know as well! 

Maybe Bund Deutscher Afrika Kämpfer, so the veterans of the Africa corps? But I have never seen this before. 

Gentlemen,

I do have another question, I do know that british medals allways have the name of the holder engraved in the rim of the medal. I wonder if anybody could tell me the reason behind it and if this has started with the Waterloo medals or even earlier. 

With german medals this personalisation is pretty uncommon, only the waterloo medal of Brunswick and all the medals of the Kingdom of Hannover have these personalised medals too. Both could be explained by the ties to the british throne. So does anybody knows the reason why this personalisation was handled this way? Was there a specific reason? When was this tradion started? This would be interesting for me to know.

Thank you in advance

Gentlemen,

I'd like to introduce this photo album on flickr to you. It shows nearly 500 photos of people meeting at quatre bras and belle alliance and replaying this battle. They do wear uniforms and orders and guns so it looks pretty authentic. It is fun to watch, to give you a first insight I have added 4 photos showing the quality of the rest to you.

Copyright by these photos lies at Andreas Springer who is the owner of this account on flickr.

On 22/01/2022 at 13:12, v.Perlet said:

Hello sashaw,

 

What is The club?

 

I just had a look on the link 0179alw...., That guy is something.

But at least he is fair enough to write:?

Da es sich um eine Privatauktion handelt, sind Umtausch, Garantieansprüche und Rücknahme ausgeschlossen.

Regards

v.Perlet

The club is a bunch of ebay-sellers offering 99.9 % faked imperial german medals, orders and medalbars! Have a look at the Schrägstrich Faker posts and you can see them in action.

same with me! 

Thank you Gentlemen,

now all is set and clear! This helped me a lot.