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    PKeating

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    Everything posted by PKeating

    1. Theory: This starts to make more sense now that we have looked at some more pages of the paybook. The medical officer who filled this document out on 23.12.1944 might have been referring to Horn's new unit or, at least, the unit to which he was earmarked to be transferred once deemed fit enough. Perhaps Horn ended the war with Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 15 or, rather, the new FJR 15, the original regiment having been destroyed in France. It still doesn't explain the reference to 3. FJD but that is probably just a mistake. FJR 15 was part of 5. FJD, which had reformed in Holland in October and November 1944. Following the Ardennes offensive, a large part of the division was captured in the N?rnburgring area in March 1945 and the remainder surrendered in the Ruhr Pocket and the Harz mountains. Given that the Germans were hurling just about everyone who could walk or hop into the frontlines by then, it is likely that Horn went into the bag at one of these points, probably into British custody, because he was later re-hospitalised in the British Zone, at G?tersloh. PK
    2. The Barth photos contain just one FJ-related image: a relative after getting the EKII at Korinth. The rest are family and Flak-related photos. I suppose he didn't have time to take photos after his transfer. They must have been able to hear Patton's artillery as they did their last drop over the Dreux DZ that July! That said, some of his photos are wonderful if you're interested in heavy flak units. I would hazard a quick guess that the FP Nr you're asking about probably relates to the hospital in Prague. It's hard to read but I'm working on it. This page is nice because you have the entry for the Fallschirmsch?tzen-Abzeichen with the date of award given as 10.6.1944 as well as the Verwundetenabzeichen in Silber on 20.11.1944. So even though Horn came late to the airborne, he was jump-trained, which is a bonus. We know he was, of course, because of the photo but it's nice to have it in the paybook. The entry actually looks as if it has been authorised with the Prague hospital stamp, which would suggest that his paybook was not fully up to date when he was wounded and evacuated. The entry for the VWA in Gold is on the slip added by Page 21, along with details of pay he received whilst in hospital. He was moved from Reserve-Lazaret I Prag to Reserve-Lazaret VI Prag and was paid there up to 28.2.1945. He was given three weeks' home leave from 30.11.1944 to, it looks like, 11.12.1944. He reported to 1./Fallschirmj?ger-Ersatz-Bataillon on 22.2.1945, which I think was stationed at Aschersleben and was the depot unit for I. Fallschirm-Korps. Mind you, the stamp doesn't specify which Parachute Replacement Battalion Horn was sent to. But he was certainly back in uniform and looking none-too-happy, as the paybook photo shows. PK
    3. What a great 5. Fallschirmj?ger-Division soldbuch and document group! The soldbuch photo was obviously taken after Horn's wound: look at his left eye and the obvious damage to his adjacent hairline. Prior to transferring to the paras, Otto Horn?s last Flak unit was 4./leichte Flak-Abteilung 731, formed from 2./ leichte Flak-Abteilung 726 in the summer of 1943 and part of Flak-Regiment 85, under 5. Flak-Brigade, headquartered in the Breton city of Rennes. 5. Flak-Brigade?s HQ moved to N?mes in February 1944 and then to Orange in March 1944. FR85 was based in Tarascon. Fallschirm-Panzerj?ger-Abt 5 was formed in Reims in March 1944 and Obergefreiter Horn arrived there on 20.4.1944. Just under a month later, he was sent to Fallschirmschule 1. Whoever filled in the entry did not specify which Schulerkompanie Horn joined but it was probably 5. Schulerkompanie, based at Dreux. The Parachute Training Companies of Parachute Training School 1 were based at several airfields around France, including Orange, which may be where Horn first met the Fallschirmj?ger. On the other hand, he may just have been told to volunteer! As you can see from the above documents, Obergefreiter Walter Barth was another former NCO recruited from the Flak for 5. FD. Note that, like your man Horn, Barth wears a cloth FSA (Fallschirmsch?tzenabzeichen) in the photo on his Parachute Licence. Note, too, the special award document for the cloth version of the Parachutist Badge. Barth passed his jump course at Dreux and was posted to Fallschirm-Sanit?ts-Abt 5, which was of course part of 5. Fallschirmj?ger-Division. Horn arrived back at Fallschirm-Panzerj?ger-Abt 5 on 13.6.1944. The unit was destroyed along with most of 5. FJD in Normandy. Horn was obviously severely wounded, evacuated and ended up in hospital in Prague, where the medical officer filling out his Wound Badge documents appears to have been rather confused. He places Horn in I./Fallschirmj?ger-Rgt 15, which is feasible as Horn could have been attached to FJR15 during the Normandy fighting. FJR15 fought with 17. SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division and was effectively destroyed in August 1944. There again, perhaps Horn found himself retreating with surviving elements of FJR15. Any chance of seeing some more pages of the soldbuch? Administratively, he ended up with a depot unit, probably on light duties with a bit of instruction of recruits thrown in but he was clearly in a bad way, as the document from G?tersloh, issued in September 1945, shows as he was back in hospital again as a result of epilepsy brought on by his head wound. Again, wonderful group! And I love the total mess the medical officer makes of Horn?s unit! One sees this kind of thing from time to time, particularly in the case of Wound Badge documents filled out by doctors who were really civilians in uniform and did not know or care much about military bureaucracy. PK
    4. Nice screwback but it seems to be incomplete. PK
    5. Well, Brian, I have read the eBay ad in which the Hansen "Rounder" was offered for $3,000.00 on a Buy-It-Now basis. It is certainly what one would call close to the knuckle but then again, Tom Hansen isn't exactly hard up for money and two factors strike me as quite revealing of a subtle sense of humour: first of all, only a complete fool would think he was getting a genuine Ritterkreuz as discussed in one of the foremost reference works for three grand and, secondly, maybe he was poking fun at Gordon Williamson's inclusion of this type of cross in his reference book. Dr Hansen did not declare the cross to be original. Anyway, people in glass houses oughtn't to throw stones! The way in which Dr Hansen decided to dispose of the "rounder" once he had carried out his research is not really relevant to his findings, is it? PK
    6. I think I have answered the points made by George Stimson and Dave B. Yes, of course, I know about the Deumer connection but I have never seen a cross that could be identified definitively as having been made by Deumer. As you say, George, we cannot be sure that Deumer did not make Ritterkreuze but it is just as possible that they bought them in, as Godet bought in crosses from C F Zimmermann. We know that the firms I listed were approved producers and suppliers of the RK. We think there may have been some other makers, certainly before the 1941 tightening-up, but that is all that we can say, based upon factual evidence. The line drawing catalogue listing George showed us evokes the overall form of the so-called "half-ring" or "three-quarters ring" RK, which those of you with Gordon Williamson's recent book to hand can see on Page 274. Some refer to this as the "Schinkelform Knight's Cross". Gordon refers to an example in a Godet carton, which would not rule out manufacture by Deumer, especially as we know that Godet sourced crosses, like the ones in the special cased EK/RK ensembles of 1939, from Zimmermann. There again, maybe Godet did make these crosses and perhaps they decided to buy in Zimmermann crosses because it was pointed out that their cross was not sufficiently close in appearance to the specifications. Who knows? This is all informed hypothesis but no more than that. One crosses the line when one writes hypothesis up as fact, supported by fabricated stories. That Hansen appears to have been gagged - and it is not as if we have not seen this kind of thing before where the sites in question are concerned! - makes it harder to refute the conspiracy theorists who jump on stories like this. You can shoot at the messengers as much as you like but it is too late: the message has been delivered. PK
    7. Dietrich, I did indeed write that approved wartime RK manufacturers included C E Juncker Godet, Zimmermann, Klein & Quenzer, Steinhauer & L?ck, Otto Schickle and Deschler & Sohn. I then wrote: "That's all, folks. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change anything." On the basis of this sentence, you suggest that I am against further investigation. That just shows how little you know about me. I am not against research at all! I am however against the presentation of hypotheses as fact, particularly when supported by falsified evidence. In saying that no amount of wishing thinking can change the facts as they stand, I meant no more than that. If someone comes up with verifiable evidence that Ritterkreuze zum EK 1939 were ordered from firms hitherto unknown or unaccepted as officially approved suppliers of the RK, that will be great! I am aware of the examples you cite although I am wary of some of the sources, as you might know! It would be foolish to imagine that no RK were made by unauthorised firms before the LDO crackdown around March 1941. However, if we are too ready to accept variant RK as examples of pre-March 1941 manufacture by unknown makers, this is tantamount to handing carte blanche to fakers and bent dealers to dream up scams like this "rounder" thing. Can W?chter & Lange produce hard proof that they made RK between 1939 and 1945? I have heard and read this story but nobody has yet scanned and posted, for instance, a letter from W&L containing such statements. As for the "unknown" cross in the Niemann catalogue, it could well be a cross purchased by the RKT or even a cross confiscated by the LDO in 1941 and subsequently awarded to the man from stock. Who knows? As such, it is admissable as a "probable". It is probably a wartime piece. There again, when George Petersen bought the Paul Conrath RK documents from Niemann some years ago, they came with enough "dead solid provenance", as you put it, to convince Petersen that they were genuine. As we now know, Niemann was brokering them for another dealer and they were fakes. Returning to this "unknown" RK in Niemann's catalogue, it is reassuring that no identical crosses appear to have been offered for sale anywhere...yet. Perhaps I am overly cynical, old chap, but I am quite experienced when it comes to high end fakers and their methods, as some people here know! In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with carrying out research but publishing it as fact or likely fact, backed by by fabricated evidence, is rather irresponsible, isn't it? Fortunately, it was exposed - despite strenuous efforts to gag the whistleblower! - before lots of less-experienced collectors bought "Rounders"! I trust I have made my position, as publisher of Dr Hansen's findings, crystal clear? In the interests of even-handedness, of course, I intend to publish your article as well, Dietrich, just as it appears on Brian's website. That way, readers can examine the evidence and arguments and draw their own conclusions. I think you will agree that I really could not be fairer than that. Paddy
    8. Points taken. I only wanted to make sure that both sides of the "Rounder" story were available to readers because "Rounder" crosses are clearly modern confections aimed at defrauding collectors and it is a serious matter. Issues like this are always contentious because money is involved. PK
    9. Approved wartime RK manufacturers: C E Juncker; Godet*; Zimmermann; Klein & Quenzer; Steinhauer & L?ck; Otto Schickle; Deschler & Sohn. *Godet's RK clearly produced and supplied to them by Zimmermann. Some early war variants, like the "half-ring" and so-called "Schinkelform" RK known and recognised as legitimate. Some people believe the "half-ring" crosses to be Deschler pieces. The Steinhauer & L?ck and Klein & Quenzer dies are known to have been used since 1945. That's all, folks. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change anything. PK
    10. Hallo Dietrich, Actually, I am one of the people who pointed out that you approached the "rounder" subject with circumspection. As for my remark about pseudo-academic articles, it was actually directly elsewhere. I do not agree with everything you have written, as you know, but I have always expressed admiration for the way in which you make your points. I think, however, it is fair to say that your articles about Knights' Crosses have been tilted towards convincing readers that Steinhauer & L?ck RK with beading flaws are wartime and that "rounders" could well be wartime.
    11. Well, the cat is out of the bag now about these so-called "rounders"! Anyone considering the purchase of one of these hitherto unlogged variants should read this dissertation by Dr Tom Hansen. This rash of pseudo-academic articles about rare or valuable decorations - see the thread elsewhere on this website about the 1914 Bar to the 1870 EK2 for another example - by people who no traceable history as far as anyone who has been collecting this stuff for decades is concerned appears to conform to classic disinformation strategies. PK
    12. No German items captured from Allied forces, I am afraid, but here is a rare photo of members of the 369th RIUS - popularly known as the Harlem Hell Fighters - sailing home. Note the man wearing the M16 or M17 stahlhelm. PK
    13. Thank you, Brian! Terrific images. They appear to be from period journals/magazines. The second image appears to be a detail from a photograph of quite a senior man. I always felt that the WHS must have been worn in this manner but had never seen any photographic evidence until now. Interesting, too, to see the 1895 Oakleaves worn like this. PK
    14. Good point. Howver, given that the ensemble is totally irregular, might it not have been concocted by a winner of the 1870 EK2 who then received the 1914 EK1 and subsequently wished to mark the fact by attaching his WHS to his 1914 EK1? After all, he would not have received a 1914 EK2, would he? And the WHS has nothing to do with the EK1. It is a 2nd Class award. He would have received the WHS. Whatever the case, it is a private confection and one that would only be tolerated in the case of a relatively powerful serving soldier or a veteran in civilian clothes or a veterans' association uniform. By the way, we know that the WHS was worn on the ribbons of court-mounted crosses but could it also have been worn on ribbons through uniform buttonholes in the manner of the devices worn on Prussian order ribbons? PK
    15. Kevin, a chara, Beir Bua agus Beannacht! N?l ach beag?in?n Gaeilge agam. The photograph is actually a location still from an RTE production. The Raleigh or Moulton bicycle made up from parts gives it away...probably from stolen parts! And there was I thinking anyone in Dublin could afford colour photography back in the 1940s or early 1950s! It looks like the back Collins Barracks but I'll have to check my references because I didn't get over to the North Side much when I was a kid! The streets certainly resemble the Arbour Hill area. Romania, eh? I've been there once or twice. PK
    16. Joe Campbell's EK1 conversion is very interesting. It is certainly non-regulation given that the WHS signifies a second award of the 1870 EK2 and must have been done by someone who could get away with wearing it either by dint of being too senior to be collared about it or in retirement. It is beautifully done. PK
    17. They are certainly identical twins, the patina of the crosses aside! The holes in my ribbon match the prongs on the WHS so I think someone must have removed it and then replaced in a different position at some point. The crosses are obviously by the same maker, like the Oakleaves and the WHS. The crosses could date from around the 1895 anniversary but I think they are probably from the 1914-1918 period. Crosses from the 1870s and 1880s tend to look like this nice example below. PK
    18. According to a General Headquarters order dated 4.6.1915, quoted in Gordon Williamson's first book on the Iron Cross back in 1984, "Owners of the Iron Cross Second Class of 1870-1871 who have earned during the present war, in combat or at home, the same decoration for special services, will get a special silver clasp or bar which will be attached to the ribbon of the Iron Cross above the Silver Jubilee Oakleaves. The bar bears a miniature of the Iron Cross and the date 1914..." This was an addendum to Wilhelm II's order of 5.8.1914 reinstituting the Iron Cross. Anyway, here is my Wagner WHS. Examination under the loup reveals fine enamel work of the standard one would expect from this firm and all the correct marks on the reverse. I bought the ensemble off a non-militaria-related stall in a flea market in New York a few years ago for $250.00. There were a few things there. I shan't be chucking this WHS in the fakes box on the strength of this article. But I think we ought to be ready for a rash of WHS resembling the one touted as genuine! LOL! PK
    19. It used to said that the owners of the Swastika Laundry intended to sue the NSDAP and the Hitler government for copyright-related reasons but were headed off by the de Valera government. Probably an urban myth but I have always wanted it to be true! PK
    20. Some French awards for Morocco bear the "David Star". As a sidenote to the remarks about the swastika, I remember little electric vans in the Dublin of my childhood in the 1960s. Here is a wonderful period photo from the Ask About Ireland website. I believe the image belongs to one Michael Corcoran. I tell people about this and they think I'm pulling their legs! PK
    21. Thanks for the comments and for the file entry photocopy! PK
    22. That is the best WM20 restoration I have seen for ages. You got the parts from Russell Motors, didn't you? I did a WD G3 one time and found that the best way of getting that preservative grease off was to place the parts on a block of wood in the hot flow from an electric space heater. A good alternative to the cadmium plating of yesterday - it is hard to get it done anywhere outside India or Pakistan nowadays because of the cyanide involved! - is to have the parts dull or hard-chromed and then fine-blasted. It is not quite the same but is better than any of the alternative finishes offered by platers the "civilised world" these days. PK
    23. The award document unfolded. This was tucked into the lid of the M?daille Militaire box and is quite a rarely encountered document. As you can see, Blanchard was honoured about eight years after his death. PK
    24. Here is an original and quite rare wartime photograph of a naval officer wearing the 1st pattern EK2 bar. PK
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