Veteran

I am sure you are quite right; It was just an afterthought. I also hope you were interested by the very unusual circumstances of this award.

Hello I would love to find the date and text of the London Gazette where the award of a B.E.M. Military Division to Dom Jacques RIVET O.S.B. was published. The reason for the award is quite official and can be found in Catalogue Reference WO/373/184 on line from Kew. It reads as follows : British Empire Medal, Military Division Corporal Jacques RIVET (3178) Corps of Engineers, French Army. "This N.C.O. a benedictine monk in civil life, while a prisonner of war in German hands, worked as medical orderly in the hospital known as Reserve Lazareit Stradroda (?). In this capacity he rendered valuable service to British prisonners of war by loyally co-operating with the British medical staff and by contrbuting to the spiritual and physical needs of the Briish patients. Moreover he used his intimate knowledge of the German language to the great benefit of the prisonners of all nationalities in this hospital". The medal is known to exist and it is named. That is why I would like to find the date of the possible publication of the award. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to locate this through the 'net; Considering the very unusual award of a military medal to a monk, I would enjoy putting the story together. Dom Rivet was a very erudite historian who had full mastery of German. He was the French reviewer of papers published in German before the war and it seems he wrote several significant article in the German religious journals. He must have made himself very useful indeed to receive an award as a prisonner of war from an Allied country. I would expect such official recognition to have been very unusual, and a great credit to the British medical officers who no doubt must have decided to put his name up for it. Thank you for your kind help. Every bit of it will be gratefully received. Veteran P.S. Benedictine monks use the posnominal lettres O.S.B; (Ordo SanctI BenedictI). Would he have been Dom Jacques Rivet O.S..B. , B.E.M. or B.E.M., O.S.B. ?

This type of "award" was often given in schools to children who were best in their form. There would be one in each form and the top pupil of the week/month woud wear it. This is a particularly well made one. Pre 1950, I would say. There would be a ribbon, any colour the school would choose to have. Could you find the sivler hallmark (an incuse boar's head)? Veteran

I agree wtih Wrangel's description and comments. Best regards Veteran

I don't think they have any military siginificance, just a part of the decorating pattern of the whole presentation

Congratulation for a very nicely displayed collection. My best wishes for its rapid expansion which I am sure you will enjoy.. The medal on the right of the upper row with the black-red-black ribbon was occasionnally awarded to French troups, but it is really a Belgian commemorative award.for the battles along the Yser river (I believe!) during WW1.

This matter has come up periodically. I bought the Francisque in my collection in the late 1960's from Maison Platt, in Paris, at the time Mr. Kampmani senior was still active. It is an unmarked Augis badge with the pin. This ancient firm had, at the time, a well deserved reputation. Material they sold was never questioned. But that is all I can contribute. Numbered pieces may have existed, I have never seen one or heard about one, which of course is no proof. This for what it is worth. Veteran

Gordon, Joe I would rather think he died of straighforward peritonitis. That is what is recorded. Should he have died from an infection secondary to a wound, he would have been recorded as "died of wounds". The French have always felt that men (and women) who died while serving their Country in times of war were worthy of special respect, never mind in which way they met their fate. The mention "Mort pour la France" opens special priviledges and legal rights for their families who are considered to deserve the same protection and care. Men who fell in combat receive the mention "Mort pour la France". But this is sometimes replaced by or amplified by the mention "Tombé au champ d'honneur". Regards Paul

Hello all aubagne98 brought the true reference. This right to a "fourragère à titre personnel" requires the Unit CO's affidavit. One cannot just decide if he is intitled or not. Frankly, that is as much as one can contribute. Best regards Veteran

I am afraid the true nature of the fourragère is missed : a unit does not gain a fourragère for just one battle. A fourragère means a unit won SEVERAL ARMY LEVEL CITATIONS to the croix de guerre. When a unit has a least two, the fourragere is green and red or light blue and red (croix de guerre colours). When it has at least four, the fourragere is yellow and green (médaille militaire When it has a least six the colour is red (legion d'honneur) Which means that the flag has a croix de guerre with the correct number of palms on its ribbon. So, if a man fought in all battles which won two Army level Citations for the unit they belonged to, he would be eligible to a green and red fourragere a titrre personnel . If it had been in colonial wars, the fourragere would have been light blue and red. Best regards Veteran

Ralstona Normally they wear the unit's fourragère. It they really want to look like a Xmass tree, they probably would have to talk about it with their commanding officer. I have no idea what the answer would be. Fourragere à titre personnel represent the number of citations received by the original unit the man was fighting with and that he personnally helped to earn. No "upgrading"; Aubagne98 Wear of a fourragère a titre personnel with a service uniform is the normal way on the left side around the shoulder. Miniatures were probably invented by post WW1 veterans and sported on the ribbon of a decoration, usually a croix de guerre if the veteran had earned one. They filled a need when veterans gathered in civvies sporting their full medals and could/would not wear the full fourragere. To my knowledge, they have no official status and certainly should not be worn on a service uniform.

Michael A fourragere is part of a unit's uniform. All members of the unit while serving with it wear whichever kind of fourragere the unit received since it was created. When they leave the unit, they stop wearing the fourragere. Men who were fighting with the unit when the croix de guerre citations were earned, have a right to wear it "a titre personnel" as long as they serve with the forces, never mind what unit. The same rule applies for members of the forces who were present with their units when a U.S. Presidential Unit Citation was earned. I have tried to make it short. I will be happy to clarify further details if you feel that could help. Regards Veteran

Commercially (but quite lawfully) produced medal. The small hallmark is the manufacrurer"s. Just a variation, no incidence on value.. We all like them very much. Regards Veteran

Yes you certainly could do your own research at Vincennes. They are quite pleasant and organised to help private researchers; A touch of French would be helpful, naturally as English is when I go to Kew. From the papers you added, I would think he fought with the French troups who were confronted in 1943 with the remnants of the Afrika Korps in Eastern Algeria and Tunisia. The fighting was tough against the Germans who were very experienced warriors. He then volunteered for the French Expeditionnary Force in Italy, but was not sent out. The Foreign Legion there were the 13th Demi-Brigade who may not have wanted one of the officiers that had chosen to obey orders and return to Algeria in 1940 rather than stay with Magin-Vernerey. His further services with a Head-Quater's Company in 1944-45 could have been with an other unit than Foreign Legion. He would then have been employed as an officer from the general reserve of officers. This would possibly have been at a distance from the Front. Regards Veteran

That's all right. It is a perfectly legal and normally produced commercial medal. Possibly Arthus-Bertrand or Delande (the diamond shaped hallmark with BRONZE should tell). The Paris Mint had no monopoly on such awards. Regards

Hello ralstona A few reactions to your questions. Your great grand-father may well have saved this war-correspondant as the "family legend" reports, But a Legion of honor would have been awarded for more extensive war services than "just" saving the life of a war-correspondant; He would have received it for leadership and bravery in the field. Very much like a british Military Cross or DSO, depending upon rank. It also is the highest award therefore it would be awarded when a VC would in the British system. The first award in the Legion of honor is always the 5th class (chevalier) wether you are a second lieutenant or a colonel. The fact that he was awarded the Legion of honor in December 1940 means the decision to give it had been thoroughly reviewed and recognised as legitimate. The French were very proud of their troups which had fought in Norway. The details of the award would be recorded in his officer's papers. Possibly available now from the Service Historique de la Défense, located in the Chateau de Vincennes, near Paris. You would have to know someone who can go there. I don't know of any researchers and the archivists there are under no obligation to answer questioins from private persons. The Legion d'honneur is sparingly awarded, but when large numbers of troups are engaged in severe fighting acts of gallantry and leadership are frequent. The French in Norway were just a brigade with supporting naval and air forces. Only officers would receive a Legion d'honneur, and not all of them, naturally. Off hand I would expect 30 to 50 may have been awarded for that very short campaign. But this is pure guesswork, it could have been much less. Considering the number of French (and Allied) troups who fought against Germany and its allies between 1939 and 1945. one would expect thousands of awards to have been made. Statistics probably exist, but I don't really know where. As an exemple, the armoured infantry regiment (Régiment de Marche de la Légion étrangere) I served with went into combat in November 1944 with approximately 1.800 men (90 officers). When we arrived in Austria in May 1945, the Regiment had suffered 506 killed (22 officers), 1311 wounded and 24 "disparus" (reinforcements had been sparinigly made during the campaign). 4 officers received a second Legion d'honneur ("officier" rank) and 31 were made "chevaliers" as a first award. What would have happened if your great grand father had chosen to remain in England with LtCol Magnin-Verneret is anybody's guess. But he would have seen a lot of action over those five years and certainly done well if he had been lucky to survive. The remnants of the 13th Demi-Brigade were fighting alongside us in Alsace during the Colmar gap battle in January 1945. But his Legion d'honneur would not have been reviewed in December 1940 as he would have been considered to be an outlaw ("dissident"). No Legion d'honneur awards were made by the Free French under General De Gaulle between June 1940 and September 1945. A special order (Ordre de la Liberation) was created for them.by the General. Hope you find this useful Best regards Veteran

He certainly will have received the Croix des Combattants and the 1939-1945 Commemorative medal with LIBERATION and ALLEMAGNE clasps. He may have also been mentionned in dispaches, in which case he would have received a croix de guerre with the appropriate ribbon star. He first served with the 1rst REC (Régiment Etranger de Cavalerie) but his presence there was discovered by the press and he was discreetly transfered to the RMLE (Regiment de Marche de la Legion Etrangere) with which he completed the campaign in Europe. Both regiments belonged to the French 5th Armoured Division. The REC was the Divisional recce regiment, the RMLE being its armoured infantery.

I frankly cannot remember ..... since I have been shy or the place for a very, very long time.

That used to be one of the best places this side of the Herring-Pond. The Platt people and their Kampmann descendants were perfectly delightful; I owe them some items in my collection I would never have bought if they had not guided me; They are now my pride. It's a pitty. The catalogues are still quite good, though. Veteran

Raistona The ribbon described is for the Victory medal. The way it is worded may have been confusing. It does say "rainbow colours" starting from the red on each side and separated in the middle by a white stripe. That was indeed the original ribbon which was authorised for wear before the actuel "gong" was designed. Hope this helps

Yes, the overseas cap and the shoulder boards are for a "commandant" (i.e.Major). They don't necessarily go together, but they might. Your remark about rank stripes on the lower parts of sleeves of the tunic would be consistant with the other badges typical of Free French Forces (i.e.Gaullists) in the earlier 1940s. I am not sure when the rank stripes moved up to the shoulder, but this may have been after 1942 when French forces were reorganised in North Africa to make up the French 1st Army which came in the war after they were landed in Southern France.(August 1944). I believe you are right.

Hello Paul Thanks again for your helpful comments. You confirm my first impression that this was different from the Boulton type of medal. It will have to find its way to a nice home in Britain. Best regards Paul

Thank you, Paul. You are, as usual, fast and informative. Your assessment is very encourageing. It also is a nice surprise. I remember quite well falling for that small badge at the Paris flea-market in the mid-60s and picking it up just because it looked so attractive. But it was a long way from French ODM I was then discovering, and it went into the back of a drawer. I hope you enjoyed the London meeting as much as I did. It was nice seeing you there. Very best regards Paul

Hello This 38mm bronze medal obviously refers to Nelson's victory over the French fleet (The Nile). I wonder who the manufacturer was and how it compares with Boulton's later medal for Trafalgar?. What do to-days's medal collectors think of it ? Every bit of information will be gratefully received. Veteran

The ribbons are strange. Legion d'honneur Commandeur. That rank would be a General's or at least a Colonel's if he had seen a lot of outstanding war services Croix de Guerre WW2; One star which means one mention (citation). Creditable, but far from outstanding Croix de Guerre TOE. Overseas services i.e. Indochina. One palm + one star. The palm could go with an award of the Legion d'honneur for outstanding war bravery or services. The Viet-Nam bravoury cross would go with the same campaign. Black Star Commandeur. (the light blue ribbon with the rosette on silver). Again a high ranking officer with possible colonial services. Ouissam Alaouite Officer. Services in Marocco as an officer, not necessarily high ranking (earlier period of his carreer ?). Merite Libanais. Services in the Near East before 1945; The campaign ribbons point to services in France during the 1939-1940 campaign and again in1944-1945 after the Allied landings in France. The Colonial medal and Indochina commemorative go together. A rather strange combination. Quite certainly an officer's. Most of the services could have been in the French colonial empire. The two orders at commander levels would belong to a very senior officer, not really a Major (chef de bataillon / commandant). The service with the Free French as they appear from the chevrons on the sleeve would certainly call for the Free French Forces commemorative ribbon, wich is missing here. I cannot help wondering if the ribbons belong with the tunic, which is a very credible Free French uniform (the rank stripes on the right shoulder are upside-down). That's the best I can make of it, and I may well be wildly off the track. Veteran