samirarora

Well done brian, thats a good one...!! (the purchase that is) As far as rare and scarce etc. goes, one also has to consider that sometimes, items is relatively commonly awarded, but is scarce in market...so the scarcity is not because it was awarded to only a few, but because its not freely available in the market. As far as collectibles go, and in this thread we are discussing medals, its obvious, something that sells for 400-500 usd, could not be very rare, or maybe rare, but noone has much interest in the same, because if these items are rare, then what about items that are for like 5k usd etc. etc. Having bought items rare that were before and my interest dwindling not two days after acquisition, i have come to the conclusion, that its better to forget about whats rare/scarce and go for stuff that interests you ..gives much more pleasure over time. A few years ago, i bought a british IOM single, its reasonably scarce and expensive, but after holding it for year , and having got bored with it probabaly a week after purchase, i sold it right back to the person who i bought it from and he was happy to buy it, as he had another 'buyer'for it. Its the history and the objects association with it, thats what matters most....to me atleast. Best wishes, samir.

The missing chunk on the second 1 is a pure give away.. thanks for that Danny! Surely, this would only happen on a fake. Although i looked hard for the beading flaw at 4PM position, but i am afraid i could not quite get what you meant..what kind of flaw is it? In your earlier post, right after the original ones, that did not have a good enough picture, you mentioned, that you did not get a good feeling about this cross... i would really be grateful, and i know, this only comes with experience, but what is it you noted, that you did not get a good gut feel about the cross? Thank you and Best wishes, samir..

Hi Darrell, Many thanks for the quick reply..much appreciated and further, for putting up a picture of the marked variation...beautiful cross! i take it the charcoal effect, is something like a matte finish, as compared to a glossy finish in others. Comparing the cross in your collection with Brian's, i note the following.. 1. The start of the pin of Brian's cross has this little semicircle (right at the top, very close to the hinge), like a smile, while its not there on the marked example. 2. The hinge, as its soldered to the main body of the cross, seems to be a single step in the marked example, while on brians cross it seems there is a double step, although this could just be an illusion due to shadows on the picture.. 3. Also, the small little pin holding the main pin to the hinge, seems to be protruding in your example on both sides of the hinge, while this is not very apparent on brians cross( again, this could be due to lack of visibility on the picture). What i mean is, are such small variances ok, within the same makers crosses ? Thank you again! Best wishes, samir. PS- I am sure this has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, so will look for that later, but am wondering under what circumstances did manufactures, decide to leave the crosses unmarked, and yet at some other instances marked them.. or was it chronological, that they first or later were leaving them unmarked, but at some stage changed their mind?

First, Thank you Brian...you know what i am thanking you for!!! Darrell- I read your last post and since i am new to german medals, i want to find out more about your last remark..ie "The 65's have that typical "flat black" charcoal type paint that's typical on the Juncker Lazy 2 RK's." I was hoping that you could kindly elaborate on what 65s are, what is meant by the flat back charcoal type paint and what is Junckers lazy 2 Rk's sorry about being totally dumb about it.. but i want to learn more, so when you have time, maybe i could request you to kindly elaborate a bit more on the cross above. Thank you, Samir.

This picture is of the edge of an ORIGINAL star. All original stars observed had edges that were smooth but with a bit of the rough towards the reverse. Many fakes that were observed were just smooth or had thin edges.

The second picture is of the revese of the above group. It also demonstrates the kind of naming style to expect on officially named indian medals, if one were indeed searching for the same..

[attachmentid=49789]Hi Folks, I did this little article recently and thought maybe it would be of help. Its a bit incomlete at a couple of places, for example i still need a list of countries that named their stars other than India. these are my personal studies having checked countless stars and spending many hours with a 10X lens. any additions/corrections and criticism welcome! attached under the post are pictures of a 100 percent genuine group demonstrating some variances in die varieties. Many times a die variety/variance has been considered a fake but now we know that all of this is not as easy as it looks . while there are many fakes around, they are mostly easily recognizable once you have carefully handled and observed an original. (as in most cases) British WW2 Stars Eight different types of stars were issued for the Second World War. Only a maximum of 5 could be earned by a person and if one qualified for further campaigns, clasps were issued for the extra campaigns with a maximum of one clasp awarded per star. So basically the star could be awarded alone and if the recipient qualified for a further campaign, certain clasps were awarded each to be attached to a particular star. Here are the types of stars awarded and the clasp that could have been awarded for each star. 1. The 1939-45 Star could have the Battle of Britain clasp. 2. The Air Crew Europe Star could have the Atlantic clasp OR the France and Germany Clasp 3. The Atlantic Star could have the Air Crew Europe clasp OR the France and Germany Clasp 4. The Pacific Star could have the Burma Clasp 5. The Burma Star could have the Pacific Clasp 6. The France and Germany star could have the Atlantic Clasp 7. The Africa Star could have the North Africa 1942-43 OR 1st Army OR the 8th Army Clasp 8. The Italy Star (no clasp designated to be attached to this one) So we have a total of 8 types of stars and 9 types of clasps. The Air Crew Europe star being the rarest and hence the most expensive and out of clasps , the Battle of Britain being the rarest and probably the most desired item out of all of the above. The ribbons for the above Stars are known to be designed by King George VI himself and each having some symbolic significance related to the campaign they were awarded for. A lot could be said about each star and for what they were awarded but that is beyond the scope of the little essay here. Most stars were issued unnamed. Many soldiers got their stars named on their own. There is a type of naming popularly known as ?Boots Naming?, the chain of stores that time had the idea to name medals for soldiers for a small fee and hence it is encountered every now and then. Some commonwealth countries issued the medals officially named for ex. India. Many stars are hence found named to Indians and then there are many in India that were not named. It is still not known clearly on what criterion were the stars named to some and not named to some but it?s obvious that getting a named star is always of interest as that has a story to tell. Some other commonwealth countries named their stars too. For Example : ________ British Medals were manufactured by not only the Royal Mint but also in the Calcutta Mint in India. While the stars from the Royal Mint are easily recognized , many a times, the ones from the Calcutta Mint have been rejected as fakes but actually that is not so. Yes, there are fakes, in fact much more than there should be , but it is important to be able to recognize a fake from the original and not reject a Calcutta Mint original , just because it does not look like the one from the Royal Mint. Some differences between the Royal Mint and the Calcutta Mint issue Stars. The reasoning I know that a variance exists and that a star is ?probably? from the Calcutta Mint and not a downright fake is that I have encountered stars with variance in an officially named state, both as singles and in groups with no doubt about their provenance. If it were just unnamed stars, then there would always be an issue whether the star is an original or fake but because they have solid provenance and are officially named, one can deduce that the star is actually an original but from a different mint or quite simply from another die with some variance in die design. The following is from my experience and personal study and is always subject to change if I were to receive further information? First and most important, so far, I have only noted this variance in the 1939-45 Star and the Burma Star. Never on the Africa, Italy or the Pacific Star. Rest of the stars I will reserve judgement as my study was between stars manufactured in England and in India and since most if not all stars manufactured in India were issued to the Indian army, I have yet to see any examples of the Aircrew Europe, Atlantic or France and Germany Star to be able to make comparisons. It is always talked about in collector?s circles whether some Indians were awarded the stars mentioned but I have still to see an example which can be confirmed by solid?nay.. any provenance. 1.Some original stars have been encountered with a raised more rounded central dome where it says GRI. 2. Copper looking rings with silver solder have in fact been encountered on many original stars, believed to be manufactured in the Calcutta Mint. On first look , they look a bit rough, with lines running on them i.e. they are not smooth or well buffed. 3. The finish could be of lesser quality than the Royal Mint variety, especially the matt finish on the background where it says ? The 1939-45 Star? . Many times the matt finish is bad and the surface is even partially smooth sometimes. Also details on the crown at the top of the star could be a bit blurry . One would normally reject a star considering these to be signs of a fake but even though a fake can display these signs, there is no way of judging by these signs whether the star is in fact a fake. 4. The reverse the star has a round centre, with the rays of the star coming out from within the central circle. The original star most commonly encountered has a _/ shape between the rays at the central part ,while ORIGINALS also can have a simple V shape. 5. Many stars encountered have a gold polish that does not look too good, but that too is not a sign of a downright fake. Ok , now that is done and having made it even more difficult to detect a fake, here is a short list of signs that will confirm that the star at hand is a DEFINITE fake (these signs have been noted down from actual fakes handled to complete this study). 1. The V and I is not joined at the top on many fakes. This is the roman numeral for 6 and it is always joined horizontally at the top on originals. 2. The crown on the original is nicely raised giving a 3-D effect but on many fakes ,it is quite flat and dull looking. 3. The cushion on the crown at the background is many a times smooth on the fake ,while on the original, it has a coarse and dotted look. 4. The centre of the crown has a two vertical lines with dots between them. On an original, you should easily be able to count four and a half dots (or five) but on many fakes, there are just 3 or 4 or any other number. . 5. Original Medals do have a good finish and fakes will many a times not. The only reason some British WW2 stars may have a not quite good finish is because so many were manufactured that as the die wears out, some detail could be lost? but overall, one can expect a good finish. 6. Originals have a uniform thickness and the example noted above as being from the Calcutta Mint that has a raised central dome is of uniform thickness too. The raised dome is the only difference and the arms etc of the star are all uniform like any other star. One pacific star was encountered which was quite thin overall and of coarse a down right fake. 7. The arms of the stars are blunted at the ends on originals, but some fakes have been found with sharp ends . 8. The edges of the original stars are quite interesting. Look at the edge of the star of any star that you have. They have a two toned finish. When the stars were manufactured, it seems that the edges were rough and they were smoothened in a second process . The edges of ALL original stars will be smooth and polished toward the obverse end of the star and a bit rough towards the reverse end of the star. As has been said many a time before, one can only become confident about such things with further study and with experience. The above has been written with a view to perhaps quicken the learning curve a bit and maybe, save some fingers from getting burnt.