Tim B

So, that's what I have so far for the WWI pieces.

Waiting on this one. Supposed to be Arthur Betrand, but the mark dosen't look like his from the PIC. Have to wait to see it in-hand. Tim

Here's one of the Paris mint (Monnaise de Paris) pieces. Tim

Another, what I think might be Janvier-Berchot, but the mark is not quite the same as the last one and the J&B is smaller. Still a nice strike. Tim

Hi Rob, Yes, I have a few of these and another one on the way. These are a simple, sharp looking design IMO. This one is Janvier-Berchot, with a distinct J&B in the pyramid. Don't pay any attention to the faux fourragere. I know the Combattant's Cross doesn't rate a fourragere, but the seller's PIC's weren't that good and I was hoping for a fourragere that actually belonged to a Croix de Guerre T.O.E. Clever guy, made one out of braided nylon. Oh well, at least the medal is in really nice shape and the maker's mark is very nice. Tim

Here's an example of the WWII version and note it has the smaller date and reverse similar to the WWI version. Tim

A slightly closer look at the reverse with date styles circled.

The larger dated version. Note, the whole reverse is different in design.

Well, another thread back from the dead. This one still eludes me and I have some questions on the WW1 types. Megan posted that shot above and looking at the suspension, I assume it is showing both types? What I would like to know is two-fold; 1) Were both types offical, or are these examples from different makers? 2) Which was the earlier version? I initially thought the one with the smaller date, (shown below) as the design on the larger dated version seems to have the same reverse as the more modern versions I've seen in other threads but, I noticed that the WWII issue pieces have the same reverse with the smaller date (different date of course). So, were both made concurrently? Anybody? Tim Smaller date:

Timo, Hard to say; might have been someone that just collected these bars over the years, or swapped something for them from other foreign service personnel. Common occurance between military guys. I meant to add yesterday, that the type colors on that WW1 Victory Medal ribbon, really don't match the normal versions issued to Americans but, it does match some of those that I have seen over the years on Belgian, French, and other European countries, so that may be another pointer this is not US. As far as the bar with the Navy Cross/Navy Distingushed Service Medal/Philippine Campaign Medal; You can try this link and try to narrow it down by who was awarded the Navy Cross but... I don't think it was necessarily for this campaign as the NC chart shows. Perhaps one of those in the "timeframe" but, I would opt for those after the Philippine Campaign or you would think the ribbon bar would include ribbons for the Haitian or Dominican Campaigns and it doesn't. Might be just a made-up bar?? http://www.homeofheroes.com/navycross/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Campaign_Medal Good luck! Tim

The other possibility on the green ribbon, though I think a long-shot due to the date of the award, would be the British Volunteer Force Long Service Medal (Colonies), Edward VII issue, 1901-1908. This one also had a green ribbon, but I think a shade darker IMO. The medal was instituted in 1894 to be awarded for 20 years’ service in the Volunteer Force, precursor of the Territorial Army. In 1901, the image of Queen Victoria was replaced with that of King Edward VII upon his accession. The Volunteer Force was disbanded in 1908 and the medal was awarded at that time to those who had served 16 years and did not transfer to the new force. The medal was then superseded by Territorial Force Efficiency Medal. I still think the pinkish ribbon is to a Order of Leopold I. Hope that helps a bit Timo! Tim

So, now we have to ask why a British Coronation Medal on this bar, IF the other awards are in fact Belgian? Here's a Wikipedia excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal Maybe the guy had a part in the services? Tim

Timo, I still think you have a mix-match of ribbons here and not necessarily to the same individual. In regards to the ribbon bar (2nd from top) in post #10; how about this? The first ribbon is more pinkish, as we see on the Belgian Order of Leopold I and that might make more sense with the second green ribbon being the unofficial (Belgian) Honor Medal that was awarded at the end of WWI, and the Victory Medal would be the Belgian WWI Victory Medal. That leaves the third dark blue ribbon with the two red stripes. It resembles the US Haitian Campaign Medal, but the center stripes are a bit narrower and the lenght of the ribbon is shorter than normal US size ribbons; so... it's actually a British 1911 Coronation Medal Tim

Well, I responded and it didn't go through... I'll try again.

Well, unbelieveably, it just showed up. So, any answers to the question above on the center orientation? Tim :cheers:

Well, I was hoping to add another one of these here; unfortunately after almost 40 days, it still hasn't arrived. So, I think I won't be seeing it at this point either. Looks like the top star arm has had some enamel repaired as it appears to be darker in color and remnants of enamel can be seen on the gold edges. Question; I have seen a few now that have the center slightly rotated at different angles; is that anything to be concerned about? Thanks, maybe one day. Tim

For your info; I did recently see a publication offered (on ebay??) that listed all the Croix de Guerre recipients for the Marine Corps personnel in WWI. I could try to find it again if you're interested? Tim

Hi Frank! Thank you for that offer; I'll PM you a bit later this evening on it. I honestly take what comes as it becomes available but, would like a nice example with some additional stars on the ribbon. Thanks again! Tim

I tend to agree that over the years, colors tend to fade and many ribbons look similar to others when it comes to colors. Also, the US military (Navy at least) allows for members to wear the "top-3" awards and not have to wear everything. I knew several members (officer and enlisted) that chose not to wear more than the top (highest) three ribbons, as it reduced the wear and costs to maintain a full ribbon bar. Can become an ongoing expense when you're entitled to wear 4-5-6 rows of ribbons and if stationed onboard ships, wash khaki can be worn with/without ribbons, so again, easier to maintain. On the bar with the Navy Cross and Distingushed Service Medal; this could be the case of wearing only the top-3, though its a hell of a jump to go from those two high decorations, straight down to a campaign medal but, I do not really think the other bar would go together as the Good Conduct Medal (service medal) would rate higher in precendence than any (campaign medal) and would be placed higher on the bar, again per regulations. On a side note; The only Navy enlisted member that I know that ever earned the Distingushed Service Medal, was Navy's Gunner's Mate Master Chief John Black, who was the 1st Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy. So again, these two bars do not go together. It's possible it belonged to someone of higher rank that participated only in the Philippine Campaign?? Might be researchable. Tim

Hi Noor, How about this? The first ribbons you posted are correct as shown and the foreign award of the French Commemorative is in last position, per regulations. Now, the bar with the "clutch back" could be a case where the member stayed in long enough to upgrade to this type of attachment, or simply put them on a clutch back for display possibly. They are sewn to the back, so they were made up this way. Tim

Best I can do. Tim

Now, here's a comparison between your badge and an original Schott badge. Note the differences, again highlighted in red. Also note how the general shape of the "boat" is compared to the one Gordon showed and an original; your's matches the fake, not the original badge. Look at the cross & crown differences. That's all I can say. Best wishes. Tim

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Tim and Don. There are a awful lot of repro solid silver WW1 U-Boat badges out there. Despite all having different detail, they usually carry the Walter Schott mark which so far has only been linked with one manufacturer. Here's another 800 silver copy. Very well made, better than the usual quality of copies but differing considerably in detail when compared with known original Walter Schott marked pieces. Gus, As Gordon explained in the above excerpt; there are many copies of this badge, some carrying the Schott markings but, they all differ in details from known originals. Now, I know we can go back and forth here pointing out similarities and differences and never come to an agreement, so I'll post a couple more comparison shots and leave it at that. If you can't see the similarities of your badge to the other fake Gordon showed as an example, and can't see the differences between your badge and a known Schott marked original, then I am afraid I can't help you. Bottom line, you have to be happy with the pieces in your collection and if you're happy and confident that this badge is good to you, then it doesn't really matter what others think. Believe me when I say that I find absolutely no joy in telling someone that an item in their collection is not what they think it is, so I have nothing to gain here either way. Enjoy your badge Gus, that's what matters. Tim First comparison: Your badge to Gordon's silver fake; compare the cross style and note how the cross bar (horizontal bar) is higher up on the vertical bar (resembles an actual cross). Note all the circled areas and note the similarities. Note the scroll and wreath leaves and how similar they are to one another. Other areas as well.

Hi Frank! Yes, very cheaply made; I almost wondered if these might be coming out of China or someone's garage. Really garbage and no comment from the seller when I sent him that same PIC and asked if he even had one of those originals pictured. Blamed his wife for the mistake!! A real loser IMO. Oh well, takes all kinds. Tim

Nice additions guys! Are there anymore out there? Tim