Tim B

I honestly think that will always be the valid point here with all vets. In the old film "The Blue Max", when George Peppard was commenting on Richthofen's Pour Le Merit, Jeremy Kemp's character asks the simple question, "Which do you respect, the man or the medal?" I think the person and their deed is what was important, not the fact that if they got recognized for it, or with what, but the fact they did their duty. Too many were never recognized for valourous acts in all wars. Some were at the right place at the right time being witnessed by the right person. Cheers! Tim

So... Now that your thread got hijacked, sidetracked and off track sorry about that Gordon, it was not my intent. Back to the topic: If the silver clasp is more prevalent (availability) on the market when comparing it to the bronze clasp, then why is more expensive? Several years ago, I picked up a very nice unmarked early tombak bomber clasp in gold. Decided why not get the higher level award as the prices were not much higher than the bronze or silver versions at the time. Then I ran into a friend locally who had a bronze and he commented that the bronze were actually harder to find as most qualified quickly for the gold level award. That got me thinking about what happened to all those bronze pieces that were actually produced and awarded prior to a decrease in demand for a lower level badge as the war progressed. Today, I still a perponderance of gold and to a lessor degree, silver bomber clasps, but bronze are far and in between, yet prices are still fairly close to each other. I don't own any U-boat clasps, always wanted the ones with the solid (non-fluted) pins. I understand those are the nicer ones. Back on track hopefully! Tim

Hello Prosper! Happy New Year; boy its been a long time hasn't it? I agree, spending 23 years in the service, I seen a great disparity in the award system and talking to others think it was always there and always will be. It really comes down to a few things: - Who you are. - Who you work for and if they like you or not. - Was your action really mentionable or not and did somebody take notice. - Is there someone thats willing to get off their ass and take the time to write up the recommendation. - How much is the command willing to push the award up the chain of command and ensure the award is not downgraded or rejected outright. - Add the resentment factor by those in the chain of command that don't have the award themselves and refuse to let anyone else get it first! You get my point. On the other side, there are actual quotas for some medals and commands can go an entire year without making a single recommendation or recognize individuals for superior performance and then, when the C.O. sits down with the department heads and says, Okay we have XX awards to give out and so many go to this department, so many to that department, you begin to see the faults more plainly. Different services also have different criteria for awards. It's much harder for an enlisted person in the Navy or Marine Corps to get a Commendation Medal than it is for Army or Air Force personnel; just the way the award criteria is set up in their respective awards manuals. Anyway, I would have loved to qualify for a silver or bronze U-boat spange--prior to 1943!! Tim

Hi Gordon, Yes, when militaria goes slow, I like to switch back to coins and have been snatching up Morgans while the economy is not good. Was lucky enough to get a few really nice toners recently that should appreciate nicely down the road. Waiting on a few Franklins and Liberty Halfs as well. I did see one of those Richthofen commemerative coins on Ebay just recently, but it has a hole punched into it where someone had to wear it around their neck. Always nice to talk coins with someone who appreciates them as much as I do. Anything you are looking for that I may help you find, let me know. Tim

Hi Gordon, That is interesting and I can fully understand the thoughts behind it. I would imagine at that point in time, many knew their chances were slim of surviving an already unpopular war and that they would suffer a fate so many of their comrades have already, they cared less for a piece of metal and just hoped they survived to the end. I think the pride of the average U-boat man was diminished greatly after mid-'43 and he was more concerned with survival and seeing his family again than medals. Though not a combat-related award, in the early 80's, the US Navy finally decided to come out with some enlisted warfare qualification badges (breast type badges) as they were pretty much the only service that didn't have these devices for enlisted members other than aircrew and submarine personnel. Surface sailors and Seabees really didn't have devices that showed qualifications, expertise, or just to show off their branch of service like you saw for Army or Airforce personnel. A lot of resentment existed because of it. Initial qualifications were rather hard to attain due to a lack of Navy-wide standards and each ship or afloat command modified their programs according to what they thought applied locally and in most cases there was resitance to help those interested in attaining the badge as most didn't have it themselves. Add to this, the award initially applied only to mid-grade to senior enlisted personnel E-5 and above and though you could start the qualification process as an E-4, most didn't give you the time of day plus much of the information was considered classified and you didn't get the information needed to pass the different departmental qualification boards. Eventually, the program gained importance and standardization and today is generally required for all personnel. My point is... back in the day, it was a real chore to get and often required you to chase down people in different areas after hours on your own time (evenings and weekends in port) and try to get the required information. When you finally passed the final board with the Commanding Officer and were awarded the "pin", it really meant something and was a sign to everyone of the dedication it took to attain it. They even came out with a special ESWS (Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist) sweater (Wolly-Pully) that could only be worn by personnel ESWS qualified. It definately set you apart from your peers. A few years later, the sweater was allowed for wear by everybody and the program became much easier to get through. Like any award based system, the easier it is to attain something, the less value or meaning it holds for those who have it. I see veterans of WWII/Korea/Vietnam that are questioning the seemingly easy award of the Bronze Star these days for service members assigned to Iraq/Afghanistan. Seems many automatically get it if wounded or killed, despite actual acts of gallantry. Still, its only a piece of metal and like any award system, its in place to provide incentive to those that want/need it. NOT TO TAKE AWAY ANY AWARD EARNED BY THOSE THAT EARNED IT!! Tim

Here's the reverse. I'll add more detail shots if needed or if this progresses to that stage. Thanks for the looks and opinions in advance. It has a really good "feel" to it for me. Tim

Well, its been awhile and I thought I would add another one of these for opinions. Again, it appears to be of the Juncker design and you will note the oval base under the catchplate. Also note it has an oval base under the hinge area and not the more common rectangular base plate. I have only seen a few of these over the years with the oval plate under both areas and wanted to hear some thoughts. Tim

Well, I just picked up two this weekend at a local show and I paid US$18.00 for each. If I wanted what he had left, about twenty or so, he would have sold them for $17.50 each. They have increased in price a bit here, mostly due to silver spot increases, but nothing about shortages here. I think the Eagles were originally around $8.-$9. when I originally started collecting these back in 1986. Not a bad investment, but I always liked the Walking Liberty design and the size of the coin is really nice IMO. Tim

Was at a show on Saturday and a coin dealer told me they should have them within two weeks. Tim

Cupal=Copper/Aluminum. I think the process called for a copper coating over an aluminum base so the applied finish would adhere better to the copper surface and last longer. Tim

Thanks Paul! Yes, I remember the seller at the coin show wanted $185. for a worn (VF) condition one and I thought it was high at the time. I thought it might have been a Goetz medal, good to know! Tim

I agree; another one, also the so-called Juncker (for now anyway). Tim

Does anyone know the correct name or official title of this? I have only seen one for sale at a coin show a couple years back and regret not getting it. Seems like Alden Hamilton had one recently as well. If I remember correctly, it's 800 silver. Tim

I remember competing with Mike Kenny for a cased one in what appeared to be near mint condition back around 2001 or so. On ebay before the ban was put into effect. If I remember correctly, Mike got it for around $800. I had the PICS saved at one point, not sure if I still have them but it was original and very nice! The seller also sold a tunic and then was gone. Tim

Yes, it about time Jody took that thing out of the box to show off again. Great looking shield! Tim

Rick, Sorry it took so long, for some reason I couldn't add PICS yesterday. Anyway, this is the only shot I took of the slip, it's not marked in any way, but it may have been on the top half. It's a dark bluish-green in color. Tim

Hi Chris! That would be great, the only reference I am aware of is the "Catalogue general illustre des Editions de la Monnaie de Paris", a multi-volume reference of at least three and possibly as many as six books, somewhat rare or hard to find and not cheap. All text in French as well. Appreciate it! Tim

Rick, The only case, per se, is a lower half of a slip that the medal came in, pictured below. ** Well, for some reason it won't let me upload any PICS right now. Not sure if the site has issues at the moment, but will try to show the PIC a little later. Tim

Thanks guys! Yes, ebay has them once in awhile, but you have to be careful who you are dealing with. There is another one on ebay right now from a seller in France. IMO, a real *X&$wad. He listed a mint piece with a reserve. I asked him what his reserve was and he comes back--Oh, well I shouldn't tell you, but I think $450.00 is what it's worth!!! I told him that that was way too high (for me anyway) and I have seen three of these with the highest one going for around $160.00 that that one had a lot of bidders and you know ebay, it all comes down to who has to have it and if there are two that just got to have it... Anyway, I made a comment to this jerk that I might throw a last minute bid of $200. just to beat any last minute snipes (though I didn't really think it would go that high honestly. He comes back and says, well I don't imagine others will let me have it for that, but... if it doesn't sell, then he would take my offer of $200. with a buy it now offer later. I told him I didn't make any offers that high. Bidding was not that high, then the old mystery (bidder-ID private) came in and started bidding up the price. Always a red flag for me and I thought he either was bidding it up to or past $200. or had someone shill bidding for him. I jacked it up a bit and quit. Nobody got it. He then offered it to me and I offered $150. He relisted it for $300. and offered it to me for $250.--I laughed and offered $140.00 and told him "you see where I am going with this"? It's still sitting there and he can keep it. Glad I waited, bought one as nice here in the US for a lot less than he wanted; still I could have got it cheaper, but the seller had based his pricing off this French guy's piece. I am not sure if he is really French or not, but he must think I was a typical stupid American with no brains and too much cash. I won't be buying anything from him, guarantee that! Tim

Beautiful Tunic Chris! I really love that Narvik you posted!! Tim

Again, the Paris mint mark on the edge and the designers name on the front. Hope you like it as much as I do! Tim

These medals are quite large (about 67mm)

Reverse:

Thought I would share this as the Verdun Commemorative Medal thread last year seemed pretty popular. I have been waiting to finally get one in such pristine condition. I really like the reverse design, incredible detail. Enjoy, Tim Front:

Hey, I thought you gave up collecting German stuff! Seriously though, that's a great score in more ways than one! Beautiful!! Tim