medalnet

Lots of English words for this poor old 3 letter German word: ?se

...here are details of the punch marks: [attachmentid=21605] and the details from the reverse: [attachmentid=21606]

Can somebody put a light on this piece, please?! Especially in lieu on the Faberge topic? [attachmentid=21603] [attachmentid=21604]

I know it is confusing. Even I have a S-W Iron Cross 1st class. The takeover by J.Wagner is, by the way, common believe. I guess I need to clarify this here. There are some indications that specific toolings were used before by Hossauer and afterwards by J. Wagner.

As I said, we do not everything. Are there prooven facts about Sy & Wagner being arround during WWI making medals? I do know S W markes on Red Eagle Order Grand Cross Stars. Yet they all have Silver gilt centers. I was always under the impression that the S would stand for "Silver gilt" in order to have a way of seperating Gold and gilt Silver from each other. This was common practice to not mix those by accident. In reagrds to the 1866 bar. It is possbile, just possible that the bar was assembled later and a later piece was used to complete the bar. It is a fact that the early pieces Especially those predecessors are hollow made and have small Oesen. Sorry to offer only a scan from a photocopy, but I don't have better pictures. Example a) is the 3rd type "Verdienst um den Staat", b) is the first type "Kriegsverdienst, which we believe to be the initial hollow made type, just like b) is made hollow. Both crosses have small/thinn Oesen.

Sorry, I didn't mention: almost all early Prussian Merit crosses have the thin loop. In my experience the later crosses come with those big, more round Oesen. What would the English term for Oese be, anyway?

Please, not Werner. Emil August Wagner. Following the literature it was him together with Mr. Sy who bought the Hossauer firm in 1859 - Sy & Wagner. We do know that the Sy & Wagner firm was eventually taken over by Johann Wagner approx mid 1880th and used from then on the W mark. Anyway, the evolution of those "Verdienste um den Staat" crosses towards those 'Militaerverdienst" crosses took many steps. Unfortunately not all archive documents have been found or survived to give us 100% closure yet. The statement about being identical pertains to the same tooling only. In this case Wagner. One can see that the earlier pieces have that destinctive S in Verdienst. The lower part of the S is always closed, yet the S on Wagner variation is open. The really early ones are those being unmarked. Early pieces of the new 1863/4 style were definetly hollow their forefathers, the "Verdienst um den Staat" crosses. Even silver had more value to a certain point then hourly labor. For those really wanting to go into detail on those crosses and medals should get their hands on copies of the :"Money Trend" maganzine #3 & #4 from 1995

...well, since we are at it, a scan from a photo showing a rather narrow Oese:

...a lunch break makes it possible. As promised the other similar medal bar from: Karl Bernhard von Schenk

Lucky you, I was offered the bar at 6000 Euro's. By the way, I compared the pictures I had received with those Wild Card posted and have to say that they are identical.

It is always hard to say by just looking at pictures. Especially with medals. But the bar has a good chance to be real. As a matter of fact, I know somebody with a very similar bar, with the recipients name. It is pretty much identical, yet it is missing the Iron Cross. I will try to find the picture tonight and post it here, too.

Indeed, I did not have the picture handy when I replied yesterday. There are also crosses with even thinner oesen. Thanks Wild Card.

I have only seen 3 variations: a) unmarked b) AW c) W Yet, I do disagree with that statement on the wire vs. ball shaped ring attachement. The very early crosses have indeed a more wire shapped ring attachement.

Well, lots of handeling the real pieces. 99% of all 3rd classes in silver gilt are gilt 4th classes anyway.

That is why it is so great that we have forums like this one. Just take the MVO 4th class with swords that has been gilt after the fact. Original 3rd classes in silver gilt are made exactly the same way their golden brothers are. Just one detail about this are the seperatly attached flames!

Ebay has been bringing up a lot of bad stuff but also a lot of good stuff. So, why would somebody try to buy this medal bar? As seen on ebay: medal bar on ebay item # 6591686391

This would be one of my favorite medal bar that came home in 2005. all decorations made by Godet in gold. Well, except the iron cross, of course.

A very nice and rare mini, indeed. Did you guys see this one on ebay (6238094565)? Very nice, too:

On more comment and I will let it go: Friedrich Wilhelm ordered on December 19, 1851, that all people being awarded a medal or order for their jubilee will have device attached to the order showing the number of the particular jubilee. This should clarify this issue.

...and not the "65", but:

Here a little bar with a real "50":

Collecting is an interesting and exciting hobby. It still can be frustrating if information isn't obtainable. When I started out - 15 years ago - collecting German orders, decorations and medals I had little, actually absolutely no knowledge about this complex topic. Needless to say that the first 15 pieces, bought from hard earned pocket money, were all fakes. Looking back to this incident I think I made the right experience. I should have strived for more information. Instead, I just wanted to accumulate as fast as possible all those pretty and interesting medals. I don't think this should happen to anybody else. Especially since there are so many different sources of information in today's world. The number of publications, books and collectors, even societies, is in any case quite different than 15 or 20 years ago. Getting the right information is way easier these days and makes our hobby more enjoyable. Building a collection does make even more fun, when information is shared in-between collectors. I would like to make my experience accessible for all those who are not only accumulating their treasures, but looking for the history behind orders, decorations and medals. Have fun working your way through my ?Web-Space? and always keep in mind, that I am still looking for rare orders , decorations and medals for my own collection. www.medalnet.net Andreas M. Schulze Ising

Rick, you are certainly correct. one should never post things here during work ours being distracted by "more important" things then medals ( well, is it?) I believe the regulation in the statues is worded that way, the true meaning is the years served for King/Emperor and counrty!!! I know of a Red Eagle Order 2nd class with oak leaf and jubilee number "65" given to a priest with a long career in a clerical office at the Prussian state. Holding the order for 65 years would be a real miracle.

Dear Stogie, I hate to say this, but all jubilee numbers have been faked. Regardless of medal or order or grade. The best ones I have seen are again those elecrosculptured ones. Most were made in Wuppertal, Germany, as well as down south in Germany. The number of fakes is not that high, but they exist. I have had a special interest in those numbers and have accumulated a fair number of awards with those numbers, to find out that they follow the same regularity as the orders they are attached to. Each manufacturer had its own "handwritting" and way of finishing them. Fact is: very rare specialty awards. Imagine holding a red Eagle order for over 50, 60 or even 65 years....

Absolutly correct. I totally agree with Rick. Yet, one question: Does anybody have a copy of a Prussian "Ordensliste"? I would be courious to know if those medals were actaully listed in there?