medalnet

Thank you !

One of the most common emails I personally get is basically always about any Pour le M?rite, full size or miniature, freshly listed on eBay: "...is it original?" Do people have a lack of common sense? Is collection of orders and decorations directly linked to faith and believe? Take any other common WWI order decoration or medal. How often do you even find a ?regular? Albert Order 1st class with swords listed on eBay or a Zaehringer Lion knight 1st with swords, which is in the same rarity range then the PlM. Doesn't it dawn on those "collectors" or shall I say fan of the PlM community that there is something wrong? I admit to check my lottery ticket every time I play and realize it didn?t win - again. But what are the odds for a genuine PlM surfacing on eBay? I am not saying one shouldn't check, but since those pieces on eBay are the same pieces over and over again it is almost mind boggling that people still think they are real. Every science (Science of Orders and medals actually has a Latin term: ?Phaleristic?) has to do with the comparison of facts, evidence. So, people, go ahead and invest in time, books and start at least some research instead of asking the same stupid question over and over again. And,...there is some help to start some fo the research: http://www.medalnet.net/The_Pour_le_Merite.htm http://www.pourlemerite.org/ http://www.theaerodrome.com/medals/germany/prussia_opm.php

Shouldn't mavery post his commander badge, too? Last model Siebrecht (Zimmermann made) with the silver mark * S? This would complete the circle.

This one is mounted correctly. The inscription is the avers.

...this could almost be a nurse. Just kidding....very nice non-combatant combination!

That's is how it is researched. Some dies were used all the way to the end indeed. Take the PlM for Arts and Science. Never ever changed. Even the original Silver gilt ones are from the same tooling. S-W was the smaller firm anyway and was run until WWI, as researched. Wagner however has always been the much more know company. Not just for those orders and medals, but mainly for heavy silver objects etc. Highly collectible. One thinks order decorations are expensive....?! I have seen those archive documents shoing lists of suppliers to the orders chancerllery and indeed most manufacturers at the seize of e.g. Sy & Wagner arround 1900 were mainly making those mass produced gardes, like Order of the Crown 4th class or Red Eagle 4th class or even Eagle of the "Inhaber". Those court jewelers (like Joh.Wagner & Sohn) were only allowed to make the "good" stuff, like grand crosses and such. Anyway, I think this should make most of us feel cosy. If not, more research is awlays appreciated.

...and of course this explains now the existens of Iron Crosses or Red Eagle Orders last model. As a matter of fact, S-W can be found on documents pertaining to deliveries during the eraly 1910th.

OK, after some more reading, talking and searching: a) House Order of Hohenzollern: It says in German in 6. of the stautes: Hiernach soll Unser Koeniglicher Hausorden in zwei Abteilungen verliehen werden, deren erste zur Belohnung besonderer Hingebung an Unser Koenigliches Haus, die zweite zur Belohnung besonderer Verdienste um die Pflege gottesfuerchtiger und treuer Gesinnung unter der Jugend bestimmt ist. This would translate into somthing like: "The order will exist in two departments, which the cross will be reward for devotion towards our royal house, the eagle for reward of special merit for the cultivation of the religious and faithfull attitude of the youth." So the eagle went mainly to teachers and clerical persons like priests. b) to settle the Sy & Wagner discussion: 1) Hossauer (*October 5, 1794; +January 14, 1874) 2) Emil August Wagner (*April 30, 1826; +?) & Jerimie Sy (*May 15, 1827; +March 30, 1881) taking over Hossauers business in 1859. After Sy's passing the business S&W is run by Johnn Wagner, which explains this change. The original business of Sy & Wagner is still in existens into WWI. (special thanks to Dr.P.Sauerwald)

The "50" Example is typical for the early Sy & Wagner pieces (here we go again). Always hollow and then covered in the rear like the pilots badges from those later days. congrats !!! As already mentioned before, the eagle was in their grades same as the crosses. Grand Eagle, Eagle of the Commanders, knight eagle and eagle of the "bearers"?/Inhaber. Those were primarily awarded to clerical staff, like teachers or priests. The Inhaber is scare, yet all higher grades are extremly, yes, extremly rare. The early examples made by Hossauer are very nice. They are warped and just single sided enameled, yet finely detailed on the reverse.

Lots of English words for this poor old 3 letter German word: ?se

...here are details of the punch marks: [attachmentid=21605] and the details from the reverse: [attachmentid=21606]

Can somebody put a light on this piece, please?! Especially in lieu on the Faberge topic? [attachmentid=21603] [attachmentid=21604]

I know it is confusing. Even I have a S-W Iron Cross 1st class. The takeover by J.Wagner is, by the way, common believe. I guess I need to clarify this here. There are some indications that specific toolings were used before by Hossauer and afterwards by J. Wagner.

As I said, we do not everything. Are there prooven facts about Sy & Wagner being arround during WWI making medals? I do know S W markes on Red Eagle Order Grand Cross Stars. Yet they all have Silver gilt centers. I was always under the impression that the S would stand for "Silver gilt" in order to have a way of seperating Gold and gilt Silver from each other. This was common practice to not mix those by accident. In reagrds to the 1866 bar. It is possbile, just possible that the bar was assembled later and a later piece was used to complete the bar. It is a fact that the early pieces Especially those predecessors are hollow made and have small Oesen. Sorry to offer only a scan from a photocopy, but I don't have better pictures. Example a) is the 3rd type "Verdienst um den Staat", b) is the first type "Kriegsverdienst, which we believe to be the initial hollow made type, just like b) is made hollow. Both crosses have small/thinn Oesen.

Sorry, I didn't mention: almost all early Prussian Merit crosses have the thin loop. In my experience the later crosses come with those big, more round Oesen. What would the English term for Oese be, anyway?

Please, not Werner. Emil August Wagner. Following the literature it was him together with Mr. Sy who bought the Hossauer firm in 1859 - Sy & Wagner. We do know that the Sy & Wagner firm was eventually taken over by Johann Wagner approx mid 1880th and used from then on the W mark. Anyway, the evolution of those "Verdienste um den Staat" crosses towards those 'Militaerverdienst" crosses took many steps. Unfortunately not all archive documents have been found or survived to give us 100% closure yet. The statement about being identical pertains to the same tooling only. In this case Wagner. One can see that the earlier pieces have that destinctive S in Verdienst. The lower part of the S is always closed, yet the S on Wagner variation is open. The really early ones are those being unmarked. Early pieces of the new 1863/4 style were definetly hollow their forefathers, the "Verdienst um den Staat" crosses. Even silver had more value to a certain point then hourly labor. For those really wanting to go into detail on those crosses and medals should get their hands on copies of the :"Money Trend" maganzine #3 & #4 from 1995

...well, since we are at it, a scan from a photo showing a rather narrow Oese:

...a lunch break makes it possible. As promised the other similar medal bar from: Karl Bernhard von Schenk

Lucky you, I was offered the bar at 6000 Euro's. By the way, I compared the pictures I had received with those Wild Card posted and have to say that they are identical.

It is always hard to say by just looking at pictures. Especially with medals. But the bar has a good chance to be real. As a matter of fact, I know somebody with a very similar bar, with the recipients name. It is pretty much identical, yet it is missing the Iron Cross. I will try to find the picture tonight and post it here, too.

Indeed, I did not have the picture handy when I replied yesterday. There are also crosses with even thinner oesen. Thanks Wild Card.

I have only seen 3 variations: a) unmarked b) AW c) W Yet, I do disagree with that statement on the wire vs. ball shaped ring attachement. The very early crosses have indeed a more wire shapped ring attachement.

Well, lots of handeling the real pieces. 99% of all 3rd classes in silver gilt are gilt 4th classes anyway.

That is why it is so great that we have forums like this one. Just take the MVO 4th class with swords that has been gilt after the fact. Original 3rd classes in silver gilt are made exactly the same way their golden brothers are. Just one detail about this are the seperatly attached flames!

Ebay has been bringing up a lot of bad stuff but also a lot of good stuff. So, why would somebody try to buy this medal bar? As seen on ebay: medal bar on ebay item # 6591686391