Mervyn Mitton

I would take a guess and say that it has been sold privately - with the agreement of the seller. Possibly to a major museum - or, someone like the VC collector.

I don't like to add too much at one time - stops other posts. However, I bought this at the same time as the IGS 1879 medal and I think there may be a family connection. I will show only the one frontal view - what immediate question springs to mind ? Yes - why has it got two Queen's South Africa medals ? Quite simply this is one of those rare occasions where two were awarded. They are not uncommon and are usually as a result of the soldier being carried on two separate Rolls - this was the case here. Gunner H.S.GUTRIDGE started his service with the Natal Field Artillery - a small unit , still equipped with muzzle loading 7 lb. field guns. They actually dragged two of them to King Cetwayo's Coronation in 1873 and fired the Salute. They were present at the first battle of the Boer War - COLENSO - and were hopelessly outgunned by the Boers. When the British retreated to Ladysmith, the Field Artillery went with them, however, before the Siege commenced it was realised that they would not be of help and they were sent towards Durban. They in fact were added to Gen. Buller's Relief Force which eventually relieved the Siege. During this period it was realised that British troops were hopelessly lost in African Bush and hills and it was decided to form a Corps of Guides from local Colonial troops who knew the area. Called the NATAL GUIDES volunteers were called for and all were given the rank of Sergeant. From 1904 to 1907 it is known that there were only 15 men - obviously there must have been more for the 1900-1902 period but, so far we haven't been able to establish numbers. So, now we come to the medals. Firstly, the QSA with the single bar RELIEF OF LADYSMITH correctly named and to the Natal Field Arty.. Secondly - an exceptional QSA with 6 bars - 5 of them for Actions. This is again correctly named and shows him as SGT. Natal Guides. Finally, we have his King's South Africa Medal - with naming to LIEUT - KFS (Kitchener's Fighting Scouts). Different naming for QSA and KSA is fairly uncommon - and of course he is now Commissioned. There is also a small medallion award dated 1894 and with his initials - probably a shooting 'Albert' for the watch chain. The end result is that he has 7 Bars for his QSA's - 6 of them for Actions + an additional two on the KSA. A total of 9 ! Some photos of the GUIDES were kindly shown under Militaria (next one down). One question that one of our experts may be able to help with - Was he entitled to wear both QSA's. After all the bars are split between them ? ( Have just noticed tht the Relief bar is also on the six bars.)

Alf - under whichever name - it is a pleasure to have you with us on the Forum. For the benefit of members I should say that Alf ran the Police Force in a South Coast town in Natal - and later, was the Town Clerk. I believe Alf , you are now retired in the Cape ? With regard to the medallion, I think the rarity is it having an official issuing and naming around the rim. I have never seen that on such a scale for a medallion. Perhaps some more info. will come to light. The catalogue of the badges was quite exceptional - whoever bought them - I 'hate' them..... See if you can separate the Convict badge and start a thread under Brit. & Commonwealth Police - about the closest for Prisons. Give some history and then I will add my two rare Robben Island helmet plates. Mervyn

Always a very difficult question - and there is no easy answer. At one time I kept back the rarer 1879 medals and had 17 put away - then friends, customers - plead to buy them once they have seen them - and helping other collectors is really what a specialist collector's shop is all about. I keep quality silver - but, the house and the apartment in the UK are 'swimming' - and it all has to be cleaned. I suppose as I have got older I have a different focus. I love the rare and different things that come-in - however, you can't keep everything. When I decided to sell my Police Collection I really did think it would upset me - I miss some of the pieces, but, it will always be remembered because of my book. I will just say though, that I would not want to run a specialist shop in the UK - the atmosphere that we have - where the coffee flows freely and customers are old friends is not always possible in high pressure situations where money is important above all else !

Robin - hang-on to that plate - having the last Honour to 'Zulu War 1879' makes it a good one. I have one on a 17th. Tschapka in the shop. Jonas - who first used the skull and crossbones ? Was it the Polish Cavalry - for many years they were the best in Europe and twice turned back the Turks. Thinking about it, I don't think I've seen who was credited with first use.

Gordon - I couldn't find your original post on Sth. African Military Police. Have just bought cap and collars for the SACMP (S.A.Corps of Mil.Pol.) These voided ones were WW2 issue and were only used 1940-1945. All were lightly gilded - the one thet looks silver, does in fact have some gilding remaining.

Thankyou everyone for your interest. Darrell has shown some lovely 1879 medals and I always feel that his research is so complete. I tend to show the medals and just give some background. This one has just come-in to the shop and I have an even rarer Levy Leader - but tragically it has been brooch mounted. I am trying to arrange a replacement suspender bar. I will show it later. Brett, what happened to Stretch's medal ? Isandlawana is probably only the one battle where a survivor is worth much more than a KIA...... I have a problem with pricing this one - he may not have been present for the actual battle - but, was so closely associated with the whole episode.

I've just had another look at the rim picture and after P.D. - it looks like South ? So, perhaps a pair - as Brian suggests and as Arthur says perhaps a district for a serving unit ?

This is a lovely example of the 1879 Zulu War Medal. Named to S.SMITH he was a member of the Buffalo Border Guard. This was the home defence unit for the town of Dundee in Northern Natal. They were only some 20(25kms) miles from the battle site and small in numbers. Their full strength was only 30 or, 32 men and out of these only 24 received the 1879 bar - showing that they were present for the fighting. The others were guards in Dundee. They were an irregular cavalry unit and wore a black uniform with the pith helmet of the time. Trooper Smith is shown on the roll. They were present at Isandlawana on the 21st. and the small Force was split - about 10 remaining at the battle site and the others accompanying Gen. Chelmsford and his scouting group as far as the Mangeni Falls - about 20 kms. (15 miles) across the plain. During the Battle three members of the Buffalo Border Guard were killed. I am still awaiting confirmation as to which group Tpr. Smith was with. Even if he was with Chelmsford, he would still have been in the camp until the 21st. and on the 22nd. they had to camp amongst the dead soldiers and Zulus. Early on the 23 rd. the whole Force moved to Rorke's Drift to relieve the siege and following that they were stationed at the Drift to act as a mounted unit in case the Zulus returned. Interestingly - Rorke, who was the original trader who set-up the trading post at the Drift ( or a shallow river crossing ) was one of the original founders and an officer in the Buffalo Border Guard. So much history in just one small silver medal weighing 1 oz. of silver (32gms.) Ribbon is the original silk from 1879.

Hello - Anthony. Welcome to GMIC - as I have mentioned before our Sth. African members keep growing - soon, we mount a coup..... So, look out Nick. Although sometimes I think you'd be glad to get rid of us ? Very unusual medallion - I've not previously seen one with just the Queen Consort's head. Being a Coronation medallion I would have expected Edward's head as well. The way the inscription is written it would seem to be a service number, his name and the initials PD. Could this be Police Department - unlikely, we don't often use the word Dept. in association with Police. Prison Department - a possibility. But with the Queen's head can you think of a womens' organisation with those initials ? Let's hope someone has some background ? p.s. - just a a thought - isn't Serfontein a town ?

Hi - Bob. Are you branching out from the Iraq collection ? I wasn't aware that Russia belonged to Interpol - which is an organisation formed by European Police Forces to act as an Intelligence gatherer for all of the Forces - and also, to alert Forces around the World of serious crimes. The HQ is in Paris and it is staffed with officers from all participating Countries. I am afraid my opinion of them went right down when they appointed the Sth. African Police Commissioner as their head officer. He is presently awaiting an appeal against a 15 year sentence for conspiracy to murder, corruption, bribery and many others. I doubt if he will ever serve the sentence - tooo many 'friends' in high places........

Robin - I think these are variations of the badge. The one on the right - in my estimation is Victorian - the other more recent. I don't think the length of the bones has any direct ref. to the rank. Although - as always - when we make a statement, someone turns up an old orders which says otherwise ! All British Lancer Regiments are post 1815 - converted after the disaster to the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo. I understand that there at least six Regiments in different Countries who use the Skull and Crossbones. Mervyn

Thankyou,Brett. Good photos from yourself and Stuart. I am still trying to establish the exact number for them in the Boer War - would have been fairly low.

Chris - only you would know about things like that.............. Brett - I am quite excited by your axe - it is the rarest of the rare. Whilst - as you say - it is not the original shaft, never-the-less it is a genuine Zulu carving and probably cut down from an Iquhbanga - or, Induna's (Chief) stick of office carried in the Kraal. The Axe head is another story. Firstly it is the triangular shape adopted by the Swazi warriors - the King still carries one on official occasions.The Zulu shaped ones are more like hoes. However, the cross border trade was strong and many of this shape were used. Remeber though that an axe was really only carried by chiefs' and became a badge of office. The cost was too high for ordinary people. Now - look at the top of the head and you will see that it protrudes into an elongated shape - this happened during the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 when British bayonets inflicted heavy losses and the chiefs tried to copy them by having the head made to a pointed shape. I have shown several of these either in this thread - or, under our Zulu Iklwa thread. Very few were made - they are rare - very sought after and are valuable. Thanks Brett - a lovely item and a good find...... Mervyn

Fowler5 Welcome to GMIC. A most interesting medal - and, the bars - an incredible set of battles. However, I think the picture of his grave is even more poignant and brings the medal to 'life'. You certainly must do some more research. Mervyn

Dan, that would be great - I've always thought them very interesting - and collectable. I recently sold the gold ones for scrap - a pity - but the price of gold has outstripped the value of the badge. I hope you are well - haven't seen you post for a while ? Mervyn

Good point Chris. Mike's got the medal - we shall look forward to his account - particularly in relation to this DSC.............

I think everyone is entitled to comment on actions which so drastically weaken the West's defence capabilities. Personally, I blame the two party Govt. - always makes things weaker - but better not comment on politics - however, just let me say I hate politicians ! They always think of themselves first. What makes me really 'sick' - is that hucks has mentioned we are still giving India a billion pounds every year - for what ? Their economy is booming. ( stg. 1,000,000,000 !!!) We also give a fortune in aid (read Swiss bank a/c's) to many other Countries - including Zimbabwe. Cut this back and we can afford to defend ourselves - why should we have to rely on our friends in the US ?

Mike - I'm a little worried - you say ' getting very discouraged with site' . Is this because not enough members are answering ? I have no experience with other Forums - so I don't know if this lack of response is the usual pattern. I have noticed that whilst a lot look , it is mainly the same group who reply with comments and information. I suppose it's normal - we all collect different things - even within medals. Sometimes I think the more straightforward collectors just don't realise how exceptionally rare a DSC and Bar is - particularly for the two Actions mentioned. I felt a little let down when the AFC received just passing interest. However, I feel that being part of an important Forum gives us older - and perhaps - more experienced members, a responsibility to show and discuss special medals which are not commonly seen - this, after all, is how we all learn. One other point - you are an experienced past Chairman of a Militaria Society in Canada - as am I for Sth. Africa. We both know that for many collectors it can become a game of numbers - ie. have I got more than you ? With your enormous collection plus, our many other serious members, we are in a position to keep this sub-forum an important learning experience - so, please don't give-up on us ? Thankyou for showing both sets. Mervyn

I heard on the news today the British Government is considering scrapping our main Carrier - Ark Royal. Also, another new one will be finished but, not outfitted. I think this is criminal - our Navy and armed forces must be kept to strength. However, I don't recall ever seeing a picture of Ark Royal - perhaps someone could post and also give us some details of the ship ? Many of the members who visit this sub-forum are ex-Navy - what do you think of these cut-backs ?

Mike - you have the collection of a lifetime - I wish I could visit to see the whole. One good thing is that we know you will always have something interesting to post ! Mervyn

DulcetTone - welcome to GMIC and thanks for sharing those excellent shots. On the Lounge we have a thread about the imminent destruction of the Olympia - the USS flagship in the 1898 Spanish-American War. Please have a look - you may be able to offer some advice ? What is your firstname? Mervyn

This was the third pattern - slightly smaller then the first two. Still a very rare piece.

Close-up of centre decoration with Metropolitan Police coat-of-arms in gilt. This was a question on our Lounge quiz - no-one recognised it as Police.