Hendrik

Hi Tim, Not really, I think, especially when bearing in mind that one can ask a manufacturer to produce a unilingual centre piece to this very day. It's when you look at the overall picture, especially including the 19th century pieces, that the Leopold Order becomes quite interesting. Also, the quality of the early pieces is so much higher than today's manufacturers are capable of achieving. Cheers, Hendrik

Tim, The crossed swords devices are for veterans of those wars and thus awarded many years after the actual wars have ended. WWI veterans receiving their Leopold Orders after the bilingual legend had been instituted are perfectly possible. They would have first received the Leopold II Order, then the Crown Order and only then the Leopold Order. The WWI crossed swords device was created in 1939 ... just for the sake of argument : say a veteran around that time received a Leopold II knight class with the new device. He could receive his Crown Order knight class after WWII had ended, say 1945-46 and 5 years later may have come into a Leopold Order knight class - this means 1950-51 at the earliest and about the time the bilingual centre came into official being. Cheers, Hendrik

Correct, Tim, plain ones indicate a WWI veteran. Cheers, Hendrik

Tim, Quite likely manufacturers' variations as you already suspected. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, I believe this type of crown was used between 1918 and 1950. Very nice officer class !!! Cheers, Hendrik

Nah guys, nothing is owed ... I'll see you when you get here

... in which case I would be happy to show you around in the Ypres area if so desired. Cheers, Hendrik

Sorry Hugh, I can't : you've managed to put that sticker on the most important part of the medal, the one showing the shield of the Independent Congo State !!! OK, the ribbon has lost a bit of its colour (should be a darker blue) but that can only be considered normal after all those years (time frame for this medal is 1892-1912). The bar represents 3 years of service and the medal was indeed awarded to native members of the "Force Publique" but also to civilian labourers. Nice one !!! Hendrik

Hugh, Can you show the reverse as well ? Cheers, Hendrik

Hi Hugh, It's neither but is the Civil Decoration for Long Service in the Administration, 2nd class - its ribbon is red with 3 black stripes. You can find it on my site under "Other Awards" and then look at the Leopold II ones. Cheers, Hendrik

Conflicting information seems to be available on the Cambodian Order of National Merit : on the one hand, I found reference of this award in Guido Rosignoli's book "Ribbons of Orders, Decorations and Medals" (plate 14) depicting a plain blue ribbon, on the other hand, there's a 1995 to present day award with the same name which comes on a collar chain (see http://www.themedalhound.com/french/cambodia.html ). Neither appear particularly apt to have been part of general Sainz awards and the idea of misplaced ribbons within his ribbon group, as suggested by 922F, starts to look far more plausible. The good general or his military tailor may well have made an error in putting the group together. So, until proof to the contrary, Palmes Acad?miques and Sant? Publique order would be the most likely suspects. Cheers, Hendrik

Claudio, the link you mention is for the Royal Order of Cambodia, not for the Cambodian National Merit Order 922F, you may well be right in your identification. Shouldn't the ribbons of the Palmes Acad?miques and the Public Health/French National Merit Order precede the Colonial orders' ribbons ? If the blue ribbon were the French Order of National Merit, I think its proper place would be immediately after the L?gion d'Honneur ribbon ...

Hello Claudio, I think you're right about the M?daille des Evad?s. On the other hand : for the French National Merit Order to be in that place in the ribbon group would be a mistake. It may well be the Cambodian National Merit Order ... The one but last ribbon is of the Nichan-El-Iftikar Order (Tunisian) whereas the last ribbon is not Congolese but of the Civil Merit Order of the T'hai Federation (Vietnam). Cheers, Hendrik

PM sent ...

Hello Gunner1, That would be a summary of Eric Tripnaux's book "L'Origine de l'ordre de L?opold", ISBN 978-9-0812772-1-1, but please note it deals with the Leopold Order, not the Leopold II Order. The book is written in French and Dutch (Flemish) language but contains resumes in German and English - 250+ pages and many fine colour pictures. Forgot its price but it wasn't expensive at all in view of the quality ! Cheers, Hendrik

... it may just as well be one awarded to a military man for a combat action. The palm merely signifies a wartime award, nothing more. Provenance, documents, other medals in the group, would be needed to determine the circumstances relating to the decoration. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim and Uwe, The Order of Leopold II should never have swords between the cross and the crown suspension. Examples obviously exist but they are quite unofficial. Manufacturers will of course produce anything a customer wants if he's prepared to pay for it. I think it's sad that these are around as they have no reason for being and, to make matters worse, I've also encountered ones with crossed anchors imitating the Maritime Division of the Leopold Order ! These horrors can't even be called fakes : they simply don't exist as original awards and are fantasies. A palm on the ribbon of a Belgian order signifies the award was made in wartime. It can thus be an award to a civilian but also (and I think even more frequently) to a military person. To sum it up, an award of say the Leopold II Order can - have no ribbon devices (= normal peacetime award) - have a palm device (= wartime award) - crossed swords device (= award to a war veteran) - both palm and swords device (= wartime award + recognition as veteran from 1939 onwards) The small palm on one of Uwe's knight classes is, of course, destined for a miniature version of the award. Note it shows the letter "A", cypher of Albert I, the Belgian King during WWI. The other, full size palm, shows the "L" of Leopold III who reigned during WWII. The latter palm was also used during the Korean War although Leopold III had been replaced by his son, Baudouin I, by then. Cheers, Hendrik

The sword style looks more German than Belgian to me ... Korean War veteran pieces would have a crossed swords device with a small plaque bearing "KOREA" or "COREE". For WWII veterans, a similar device, with a plaque "40-45" exists. Cheers, Hendrik

Tim, The crossed swords ribbon devices indicate an award to a war veteran and can be awarded with the Leopold Order (military), the Order of the Crown and the Order of Leopold II. The device itself was officially created in 1939. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello again Tim, I think both are likely to be genuine. Various styles do exist and note also the hilts of the swords are touching the cross on the one and not on the other of your crosses. Such differences are in my opinion due to several manufacturers, both in France itself but also in the then French colonies, producing these at the time. Veteran and Bison, to name but those two, are far more experts on this than I am and I hope they will chip in with their opinions ... Cheers, Hendrik

Unlike the Leopold Order, the Leopold II Order has no divisions and thus no crossed swords below the crown suspension. The crossed swords device on the ribbon in the left picture is the correct one for Belgian orders awarded to WWI veterans, the device in the right picture is not. The changeover from unilingual to bilingual legends took place in 1951-52. And, the ribbon device is supposed to have the swords pointing upwards ... Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, The one with the swords underneath the crown is the "military division" of the order, the one without these swords being the "civil division". The crossed swords device on the ribbon indicates a WWI veteran recipient. Such a recipient has to be considered as serving in the military during the war and, hence, the crossed swords device should only be present on the military division decorations. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Valgor, I also have no doubt the recipient was entitled to the palm device - maybe he lost the original one, maybe an unscrupulous merchant sold him the Croix de Guerre with the devices which he had at hand when the recipient got around to purchasing the medals he was entitled to ... I guess we'll never know exactly. For the sake of clarity, Belgian chivalry orders were awarded to WWI veterans, officers, NCO's and EM's alike. Thus bars with one or more of these orders present are not necessarily officers' bars. Cheers, Hendrik

Apart from the Victory Medal, the WW1 Commemorative Medal is also missing. I rather think this is the first bar of two that someone was entitled to. The second bar, worn below the first, would thus have the two medals mentioned above plus - quite likely - the Commemorative Medal of the 100th Anniversary of Independence. The palm device on the War Cross is, unfortunately, the one for miniature medals. I quite agree with Valgor that the Yser Medal - though not particularly rare - is important in such a group. It's often underrated in that respect as it does show the recipient was serving from the start of WW1 and managed to survive the 4 year ordeal ... Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, The crown style is an important factor when dating these awards but it's not the only one. Colour of the enamels used, unilingual or bilingual legend, presence of silver and/or maker's marks, overall quality, etc. will all be useful elements to consider. The crossed swords devices (there are 3) on the ribbon indicates an award to a war veteran. I suggest you take a look on www.medals.be where you can find more information ... Cheers, Hendrik