Sandor Molnar

Charles, The Museum of Military History has two officer's wool tunics without waistcut. I was wrong, the lack of waistcut is not an indication for enlisted. If you could make some pics from inside that would be great although, as officer's wool tunics have a different inside than enlisted tunics. Regards, Sandor

Bazsi, A very nice tunic. The modifications made most probably in 1958 are easy to spot, the shoulder straps have round ends(the original 1949M enlisted tunics used to have almost rectangular ends), the collar devices are from different material, and also the small buttons are different (1957M instead of 1949M). According to the sources many thousands (I don't remember precisely, but I think 3.000 or 5.000 was the number) of 1949M enlisted uniforms remained in the depots of the army after the introduction of the 1950/51M enlisted uniform. It seems they were not destroyed, and were re-introduced with minor modifications after 1957. Regards, Sandor

Charles, I will clear this with Tam?s, and come back to you. No doubt that officer's and NCO's used to wear the 1957M wool field tunic, but I suppose they were of the older, waistcut pattern. The wool uniform was pulled out just two years after its introduction in 1959-60. It was not mandatory to throw them out, they could be worn until 1965, but new pieces were not produced. This is important as the new, no-waistcut pattern dress tunics were introduced only in 1961. Regards: Sandor

Charles, I am attaching for you a drawing from the 1959? dress poster. It shows an enlisted man in walking-out uniform. Regards, Sandor

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Well, let's see then my favourites of my collection. You might have already realized that I have a special affinity towards 1957M uniforms. So I am showing you those. Three of the tunics are dress (t?rsas?gi) ones, one is field (gyakorl?). Two are made of winter (f?sűs) material, two of summer (tropik?l). Three have waistcuts, one does not have. The caps also show a huge variety as per colours and material. Enjoy, Sandor

Gordon, Unfortunately I don't have the original "paper" photo of the general, I only have an already scanned version. Anyhow I tried to do a little magic, please see the outcome. Charles, Well, I must say I am pale of jealousy, you have an original 1958M walking-out (wool) enlisted tunic! I guess you and the Museum of Military History are the only ones who do have... However please allow me some remarks. The shoulder boards are not consistent with this tunic at all, as enlisted ranks used to be worn on the collar. Moreover, instead of shoulder boards enlisted tunics had shoulder straps made of the same material as the tunic itself. Also the collar devices seem to be officer ones, if their size is 2,5x7,0 cms, then they are not enlisted ones (enlisted ones were of 3,2x8,0 cms). Sometimes it happened that officers and NCO's modified and used enlisted stuff. For example I have already seen modified 1947M and 1949M enlisted tunics, and also 1987M sailor pants. However 1958M enlisted tunics were very rare and very well kept by the army in the first years after their introduction, so I can't imagine that any of them had been modified to an officer's or NCO's 1957M field tunic. Especially as the wool field tunics had been taken out of use already in 1959-1960, first by officer's than by NCO's. Don't you want to trade the tunic? I would need only the tunic without the effects. I have a spare pair of collar devices, would only need the shoulder straps... If you would be interested, you could ask anything from my collection. Almost anything :-) As per your 1957 modified 1951M, that's a really beautiful one. I like these tunics very much though I don't collect them at all. The most interesting in the 1956-57 modicifations is that the variety is enormous, you can find all combinations... Regards, Sandor

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Gents, What about starting a topic on our favourite uniforms? Let us post original photos and pics of our own pieces... 1. photo: I am beginning with my very best of, a 1957M general's uniform. You can see the beautiful embroidered oak leves and the early pattern cap still with an officer's badge. 2. photo: the second photo shows a tankist lt-col in a 1957M white (allowed) uniform with the beatiful white top-black standing part peaked cap. 3. photo: the third photo shows two brothers, one of them in a 1950/1958M sailor, the other in a 1958M enlisted summer walking-out uniform. The shirt (ingbl?z) on the sitting guy is the latter, green pattern, introduced around 1962-63. 4. photo: the fourth photo shows an enlisted soldier in a 1958M walking-out uniform. The tunic is made of wool, these pieces are very-very rare todays. The peaked cap seems to be a pre-1958 one. Regards, Sandor

Charles, The name of the flea market is Verseny utca (Verseny street) market, and indeed they don't sell there faked or altered uniforms, or at least I've never found any. Regarding your tunic it could of course have happened that the guy had the tunic already for a while, when he put on the new shoulder boards. Why to throw out a good tunic if it still can be used... As to the dates, my guess is that the new pattern 1965M shoulder boards were introduced around 1969-1971, most probably along with the new pattern pants in 1970. Anyhow, I don't think that we will have a 100% judgement on this issue, according to my experiences the best is in such a case the gut feeling. You have the tunic, you bought the tunic, if you have the feeling that it's ok, then I will gladly beleive it. Regards, Sandor

Charles, Gordon and Bal?zs, According to my experiences there are two traditions in military nomenclature. According to the "conservative" tradition you are not allowed to "invent" new denominations, you have to use the official (army) versions. The disadvantage in this case is that your denominations are not precise enough. The other tradition is the "innovative", when you are not feared to invent new denominations. The problem with this is that two collectors often speak a different language. The other problem is that it is not always obvious whether a uniform should get a new denomination/double denomination/triple denomination, as it depends on the "resolution" of your nomenclature. Let's take the 1957M dress tunics, there are at least 6-7 models/variants/subvariants. "Waistcut" or not, embroidered or metal branch badge, 49M or 57M button, white or brown inner lining etc... All could receive an own denomination, it's only a question of the "resolution". Charles, I would gladly see some close-up pics of the ex-piping. And if possible, also of the shoulder boards. To be honest I don't like them, on that type of a tunic I would expect early 1965M ones... Gordon, Please go to http://www.reintex.hu, click Term?kle?r?sok on the left menu bar, scroll to Felvarr?k, kitűzők. You wil see they have a huge inventory... Bal?zs, The denomination 1957/1965M would suggest in my opinion that it is an official variant. For that reason I would suggest the term 1965 modified 1957M... Regards, Sandor

Hi Gordon and Bal?zs, hi all, Bal?zs told me about this site, I was curious, and now I am here. I've browsed the threads, the site is really great, you can find a lot of interesting information. Thanks Bal?zs for the great idea! Regarding the tunic in question I would call it a 1965 modified 1957M, as the standard terminology does not discriminate between "waistcut" and "no waistcut" 1957M's. We could of course introduce a new denomination, in this case it would be a 1961M, as these tunics were "put in service" in 1961. The coloured pipings were used until 1965, when the standard 1965M uniform was introduced. Gordon, the militaria wholesaler in Szolnok called Reintex sells medal holders of the kind (for military diplomat uniforms) you are looking for. Regards, Sandor