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    Schießplatzmeister

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    Everything posted by Schießplatzmeister

    1. [attachmentid=26038] Finally, here is a view of the piece and the non-combat ribbon. It looks much better in hand than in my poor quality scans. The piece was made from a single casting and the edges were ground to finish it. I have seen a LOT of copies of these pieces with various dates (and no date) come out of Germany in the past few years. Genuine pieces are not that common as Mecklenberg was a rather small Grand Duchy. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    2. [attachmentid=26036] Hello everyone: Here is a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Milit?rverdienstkreuz 2nd Class for 1870. I believe that it is genuine. It is well detailed and rather thick compared to the 1914 types that I have seen. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    3. Hello folks: Yes, this bar seems VERY wrong. I don't believe that a Bavarian would wear his bravery medal behind his MVOVKIIm/schw., and ESPECIALLY not behind an EKII. It makes no sense anyway one looks at it, yet it does look like an older mounting in typical Bavarian fashion. Also, the Saxe-Meiningen medal should not appear with the Bavarian items (I can't remember ever seeing this). Strange (???). Schie?platzmeister
    4. [attachmentid=25844]Hello again: Here is the reverse. Note that the reverse center has no insert. The legend is "F?R TREUE DIENSTE" (for loyal service). Schie?platzmeister
    5. [attachmentid=25841]Hello folks: Here is a photo of the obverse of the 1892-1918 Officer's 25 Year Service Cross. Notice that the "W" does NOT have enamel (my earlier comment was erroneous) and the wreath DOES have green enamel. The center of the cross appears to be made of silver judging by the patinae and it is definitely a separate piece. The cross arms are finely stippled and the raised edges of cross arms are polished. Schie?platzmeister
    6. Hello again: An active duty officer would definately receive a 25 year service cross if he had the proper amount of total time in service. This cross was made from gilded-bronze, and had a "W" (with green enamel) for King Wilhelm II surrounded by a wreath on the obverse center medallion. Is there anyone out there that can post a photo/scan of this piece for Stijn? Stogieman, I am sure that you could add a lot here regarding what combinations of service time could lead up to an officer's 25 year service award (reserve, active, combat, etc.). There may already be another thread which covered the Prussian regulations which were probably analogous to those for W?rttemberg. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    7. Hello everyone: The nine (9) year service medal was awarded to enlisted soldiers. This medal was made from iron and it should be magnetic. The 1913-16 pieces are made from argentan (a silver-coloured, non-silver alloy). As the war progressed, the Kingdom of W?rttemburg (and other German states) stopped using more valuble metals for these pieces and switched to iron which was more common (less-needed for war-related production) and cheaper. I hope that this helps! Schie?platzmeister
    8. Hello everyone: Hopefully, this will load properly. It is the ribbon to a SEHO Commander's Cross (sorry for the poor quality of my scan). Thanks, Schie?platzmeister p.s.: I'm sorry but I can't get my scans to load. What Brian has shown is also the configuration that my ribbon is in.
    9. Hello everyone: I too saw this photograph on Ebay. I recently read a few very interesting articles posted on the internet regarding American black men who had escaped slavery during the Revolutionary War and were recruited by Kurhessen regiments as drummers. Apparently it was a status symbol for a regiment to have a black drummer as their skills were highly prized. According to the article, Prussian regiments of the time also followed this tradition. It is interesting to see that this tradition stayed around for awhile. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    10. Hello again Bob: I will give it a try withing the next day! Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    11. Hello everyone: I am probably overstating the obvious, but please note that the Adjutant's Badge worn by Deruelle's Officer is that of the Kingdom of W?rttemberg (not Prussia). Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    12. Hello Bob: I actually have an answer to your question. The Commander/2nd Class grade neck Orders in the 2nd, 3rd, etc. positions were usually worn on a short length of Knight's Cross width ribbon with a buttonhole cut and sewing around the buttonhole to strengthen it. The ribbons with the orders attached were then placed over the button and buttoned into place as the tunic was fastened. I know this because I have an example of a SEHO Commander's cross with such a ribbon. Without seeing this example, I would never have figured this out. I believe that most Officers or civilian recipients didn't wear everything all of the time, only if there was a special occasion. I hope that this helps. Does anyone else out there have Commander/2nd Class neck Orders with buttonhole ribbons? Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    13. Hello Gents: I'm with Stogieman on this one. The bar looks VERY correct. It has antique ribbons, all original awards, is of the proper mounting style, and has the awards in the proper order for a Saxon. My guess is that the fellow was wounded at some point very late in the war and was then utilized for some home-front/rear area activities, and that he then received his War Merit Cross. I have seen other War Merit Crosses mounted with other Saxon awards, but usually the entire group has non-combat awards (i.e. medical, etc.). Statutes were often changed and circumvented (especially toward the end of the war). Sometimes, after the war, anything went as far as medal bar mounting (look at all of the veteran's organization pieces that we see that cropped-up in the 1920's/30's). This one will have to remain a mystery. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    14. Hello Tom and Stogieman: A very nice document indeed and seldom encountered. Unfortunately, "what is done, is done". The paper's colouration change caused by the "cello" tape is pretty much now a permanent feature. Perhaps it could probably be undone by a bleaching process, but this would cause more damage to the rest of the document. Like most things old, it is best left alone. Often, our attempts to "improve" things actually cause more damage to the item and actually diminish the value that it has. Be content that you have an original and uncommon document that was carried by the recipient for a long time thus leading to the present condition. I think that the discolouration adds "character". Congratulations Tom concerning a nice addition to your collection. Best regards, Schie?platzmeister
    15. Hello everyone: Claudio, all I can say is WOW! That is one of the nicest 1864 campaign Officer's groups that I have ever seen. It is a shame that you couldn't get it. That is definately a "keeper". The named Schaumburg-Lippe campaign medal is an EXTREMELY rare (unofficial) variation (only the second one that I know of). It is interesting to see the "AW" maker's mark on the RAO IV w/sw badge (this was a recent topic of discussion regarding the Prussian Milit?r-Ehrenzeichen 1st Class). I love these early campaign groups! Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    16. Hello again: Thanks Dave and Rick for your observations regarding the HHO. I don't doubt the originality of the HHO piece at all as it is well made. I think that putting all of our ideas together, it would seem to date from perhaps 1917 into the 1930's. I could understand silver-gilt HHO badges without swords being made in 1916 for potential issue (with all of the gold badges in stock being smelted). Then, when the number of awards of HHO badges with swords started to exponentially increase in 1917, I could understand Godet using-up their stock of silver-gilt HHO badges w/o swords. I could also understand the expediency of using rivets. I appologize for the tangential diatribe! Now back to the original question/answer regarding the bar! (I unfortunately don't have the answer). Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    17. "As far as I am aware, these pieces are deemed to be good. I was told that unused stocks of crosses without swords were modified by having swords added to them ca. 1916 so that they could be issued to meet rising demand as the war progressed." Hello again: This is an excellent point and something that I was not aware of. But it leads me to a question. Why then is the badge not made of gold since it is of pre-1916 Godet stock without swords, which was modified in 1916 with swords? The piece in the group is obviously a silver-gilt badge judging from the photo (I would understand a gold badge with silver-gilt swords). Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    18. Hello everyone: The "Godet" group is definately relatively recently assembled. If you note the edging on the W?rttemberg Friedrich Order Knight 2nd w/ swords ribbon, you will see an edging that is modern and was never used for German ribbons prior to 1945. It is akin to the edging seen on modern US ribbons (forgive me, as I am not a textile expert, and don't have the proper term to describe it!). The ribbons for the whole group look to be nylon and probably would glow nicely under UV light. The HHO w/ swords has the sword parts RIVITED to the wreaths. Wagner pieces were not done this way, nor were those made by other manufacturers during and immediately after WWI (as far as I am aware). The badge may have been made by Godet, but is certainly a later-made piece, rather than an earlier piece in my opinion. I am still puzzled over what Rick is alluding to as improper combination-wise, but will guess that the W?rttemberg Order was too low-level an award to go with the HHO which would have been awarded to a more senior officer (I don't have access to my library right now and can't verify this, and my failing memory can't recall!). Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    19. Hello everyone: I can't resist jumping in on this topic! I have been offered "genuine" PLM's by folks who thought that they had genuine treasures in the past. After arranging to view the pieces at their residences for possible purchase, I leave shaking my head also wondering how they came to buy such trash. Usually, they specialize in something else, such as uniforms, etc. They want a piece to "display", and create a "need" which is filled by the next unscrupulous dealer they run into. The last piece that I viewed even had a certificate of authentication from a well known 3rd Reich dealer in the UK (who has written a few books). The piece was a lovely counterfeit made in gold, with a case, but a counterfeit none-the-less. I usually don't have the heart to tell them what fools they are (and they usually don't want the truth anyway). I'm sure that they do like going around saying they have a "Blue Max", and that their family, neighbors, and the folks at the local gun show are most impressed. The last time that this happened, I told the fellow that the piece did not match what I wanted and I showed him a reference book ($20) which showed an original. He then asked that I get him a copy of the book (which I did get him) and we parted ways. It is a shame that he didn't invest $20 in a book before he paid however many thousands of hard-earned dollars for his piece of garbage. Greed of course is another factor, buyers on Ebay might think that they are getting "something for nothing" if they spend a few thousand on something that "looks" genuine and could be worth a lot more. I guess that I too am part of my problem (I am too polite to tell folks that have made a mistake). My good manners let them continue on convincing themselves until the thing moves on to the next unwitting victim! Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    20. Hello folks: Please note that the swords for the Anhalt Order of Albert the Bear are without any doubt forgeries. All original awards had swords which were much longer. These forgeries (added to genuine and counterfeit badges) have been around for awhile. See Neil O'Connors opus Volume V., page 252. The two pieces shown at the top of the page have counterfeit swords, the piece at the bottom of the page is original (or of the proper dimensions like originals). Gerd Scharfenberg's superb 1999 "Die Orden und Ehrenzeichen der Anhaltischen Staaten" shows examples of original badges and medals of the Order with swords, and ALL of them have the "longer" swords. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    21. Hello again everyone: I have a few more comments regarding the Prussian Military Honor Award 1st Class. I hope to clarify the "AW" maker's mark issue. Please note that the 1866 piece shown by Stogieman that was removed from a group is marked "AW" on the cylinder between the cross arms at the lower right side. Also note that Medalnet lists "AW" AND "W" markings as proper for this award in his article posted on his website. Finally, in the June 1999 issue of "Orden und Ehrenzeichen", in an article by Peter Sauerwald listing pre-1918 Berlin orderjewelers, there is an entry for a jeweler Wagner, Emil August. His mark was "AW". He is known to have made pieces in the 1850's. I believe that it is probable that the "AW" mark on the Military Honor Awards 1st Class are his. Note that this is a different jeweler than Wagner, Johann & S?hne who made pieces starting a bit later, and has the mark "W" that we are all so familiar with. Therefore, I believe that both "AW" AND "W" marks are proper for these pieces, with the "AW" pieces being from the first batches made for the 1864 and 1866 conflicts, and the "W" pieces being of later manufacture. There were 191 awards made in 1864, 415 in 1866, 29 in 1867, 52 to Russians in 1902, and from 1895-1905 201 awards made for the colonial wars. Therefore, a total of 888 awards are known, with 606 being from the 1864 and 1866 conflicts. In conclusion, I would surmise that there were at least 606 pieces of "AW" manufacture. I hope that this clarifies things a bit. Does anyone out there have any groups which include this award? What are the markings? Please post photos! Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    22. Hello folks: An interesting thread! I would like to note that the "AW" maker's mark on the cylinder is correct for an 1866-era Military Honor Award 1st class (not that the piece is the group is necessarily correct). I can't recall however who exactly it signified. Perhaps Medalnet can recall (help!). As David' keen eye noted, the small loop at the top of the cross through which the ribbon ring passes is indeed tapered slightly on the originals (it is wider at the bottom than the top). I would also like to point out that the 1870 campaign medal in the group is a copy (not an "officially awarded" piece). Note that it has a this wire loop at the top and not the broad flat ribbed "ring" on official medals. The ribbons look like they are from old silk stock [not impossible (but extremely difficult) to find these days]. The backing as Stogieman pointed out is completely inconsistent with known groups from the era. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister
    23. Hello everyone: Yes, this is a scary bar to say the least. Someone is apparently fond of it however (unless there are schill bidders involved). The HHO's swords are not of the proper proportions either, they are possibly a bit longer than those on original pieces (in addition to not being marked). I have had an original HHO badge that was not maker marked, but it was still marked "938". Apparently, copies of HHO badges were made by Steinauer & Luck into the 50's, 60's. I think that all of them would look like garbage when viewed closely. Like Rick stated, what isn't there gives one a clue that there is a problem. Where is the Honor Cross with swords? I can't think of one example off hand of a recipient who was on active duty in the late 30's that did not have an Honor Cross included in his group. Most veterans applied for their crosses and wore them proudly. Hence, were have a recently manufactured group with a gilded MVO 4 w/sw, a HHO w/sw of modern manufacture (post WWII to be sure), and NO Honor Cross! The group just doesn't make sense! Notice how bright the gilding looks. Original gilded silver WWI German Orders look a bit dull usually. I believe that this group appeared on Ebay some years ago also as it looks a bit familiar. Excellent observations by Medalnet regarding the gilding of 4th class MVO badges. Also note that there are "instant" 2nd and 1st class merit crosses of the MVO circulating (with and without swords). 3rd class merit crosses w/ swords are silver/gold plated, their centers are enamelled, and the swords are removed if a badge w/o swords is desired. I have seen a bunch of these come out of Germany in the past. Schie?platzmeister
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