Phil Steele

Thanks Tim As I said sorry about the scans and I must try to take good shots with my camera see what happens but yes the Demjansk is the missing log one so Yahoo I got one right. I tell you before looking at this thread I thought I had 6 good shields and one questionable but only in regards to the backing. Now I have two that are no good at all (are you sure about the Narvik)...In regards to the Panzer Krim you guys are probably correct in the origins of the backing but as said, the shield is ok so I will hang onto that one. Yes I can now tell the difference between that fake Krim and the others. Not only are the features flat the shield is somewhat smaller which I didnt notice before. On the positive side today I have learnt something and will never fall for that again. Apart from Webers book on the Krim are there other reference works on the shields available? Once again many thanks to you both and Tim I am going to send you a PM seeking opinions. Phil

And just for your perusal here are two pictures of the Panzer shield taken as you will see from the dealers website...

Well if there was a humble pie icon available then now would be the time to use it. Peter and Tim please excuse my previous posting as Peter you are correct in the KM backed shield top left. My wife just got me Sacha Webers book (in german which i cannot decipher but she meant well) and low and behold there is that shield on the last page of the repros........ Damn I was so sure that shield was ok as it feels right and even the backing plate which can be seen under the paper which is lifting has rust all over it. I originally questioned the Panzer shield because it just looked too new. I will hang onto that one even though I will never be 100% sure the backing is genuine or not but the KM shield is going back for a refund I hope. Gents I think maybe its time a guy started to specialize what I collect. I have a good collection (although now I not so sure whats real and what isnt) with all things ranging from a couple of helmets, a jacket right down to a few medal bars, badges and eveything in between. Scotch bottles have no interest to me..well empty ones at least. The entire spectrum of collecting TR items is in itself far to broad so I might just swing your way a bit and collect shields. Like em..always have and it would seem I have two reasonable fellows to discuss matters with prior to buying. Just out of interest Tim and Peter do you also collect documents pertaining to the shields. I have a very battered Krim document as well as Kuban and Demjasnk. Right now though here are my three other shields which i will post with fingers crossed. Look forward to your comments A very red faced Phil

The Shield on the top left is the KM backed and the Panzer is the bottom right. The Panzer shield has been looked at on WAF and yes no one can say for sure that it is genuine backing cloth and paper although the shield is genuine. I am going to stick my neck out here and say that I purchased the Panzer shield from Kai Winkler and the KM backed shield from Martin Bowers of M& T Militaria. Whether this may or may not have any bearing remains to be seen. First off I am happy with both shields even though I saw a ridiculous statement on WAF saying that Winkler was well known for putting different backing cloths on shields. Maybe he does maybe he doesnt but unless you have seen him do it or heard him say it then I do believe that to be a ridiculous statement to make. Peter could you post a picture of this Floch copy so I can have a good look at it. Gentlemen, we all know there are fakes out there but I am a firm believer it is not as bad as we are lead to believe and if well known and long established dealers are now putting repro cloths on the back of genuine shields just to make a 100 bucks then I think we should all give it away and collect empty scotch bottles. I have found that no matter what you have you will never please everyone...there will always be someone out there who puts doubt in your mind. Maybe they are just trying to be helpful or maybe they are not...I simply give up and if I like it then I will collect it and no I am not rich, far from it but I have been collecting for a long time and I can say I am far from being any sort of expert but I have learnt to rely on my own judgement in the end even though I do on occasions seek opinions for forums. Just remember even the experts get it wrong sometimes so I say go with your own gut feeling. No offence intended or meant to anybody and appreciate the comments so far Phil

Ok here we go here are the pics of my four Krims on Luftwaffe,Kriegsmarine, Panzer and Heer backing cloths. Unfortunatly my scans are not the best due to the fact the shields dont sit flat on the screen so the images are a bit soft but I am sure you can see them. Phil And the Reverse

Boy I seem to have said something that has got a few feathers a trifle ruffled. My comment about reading some of Tim's threads on Wehrmacht Awards Forum was only meant as I indeed put it. "I have seen your threads on another well known forum". There was no underlying meaning in this at all as I do indeed sometimes scroll through threads on WAF as I do with this forum. In fact Tim actually responded to a thread concerning a Panzer backed Krim I purchased and was not 100% with on WAF a few months ago. In response to the question re showing my Krims I will do just that but will have to rely on my scanner which is not an Epsom (sorry Rick). Phil

H Tim I do believe I have seen your threads on another well known forum. Like most collectors I have a couple of shields, Demjansk, Kuban, Narvik and 4 Krims with the various coloured backing cloths (Luftwaffe, Heer, Kriegsmarine and Panzer) but I like to dabble in just about everything so I dont specialise. Nice display of Krims you have there. Phil

Nice one Herman. I always enjoy looking at medal bars but like you I dont have many. Hopefully that will change as time passes. Phil

Beautiful medal bar Claudio...thankyou for sharing it. PHIL:love:

Even to my inexperienced eyes that is a really nice medal bar... Phil

My mistake stogieman the EK2 is the third in line reading from left to right and the MVKx3 does have a crown which I also omitted to tell. From what I can gather this is quite acceptable which does answer my original question. Many thanks. (I would have posted the picture but not sure of the legalities not to mention the uproar it might cause posting a picture from a dealers website.) Phil

The order is MVK2X, MVK3X and EK2....I guess that makes it a civilian mount but please excuse my ignorance but what is a civilian mount. I know the Frack style or are these one and the same. If so can you tell why they did this style. Phil

Good stuff...might have to add that one to my collection. Phil

Thanks for the replies. I thought that was the case also. The reason I asked was that I was looking at a small medal bar in the hands of a dealer and it displays EK2, BMVK3X and BMVK2X. I wasnt sure if that should be correct or not and the bar certainly looks the part (old looking and certainly looks to have seen better days). Again many thanks. Phil

Hi Guys Quick question...was it common for a Bavarian soldier to be awarded two classes of the BMVK and if so would it be the norm to wear both? For example a BMVK3X and BMVK2X on the same medal bar. Phil

Thanks Jason...so far so good nice and friendly unlike some I could mention. Also a fair bit of knowledge to be levered out of a few of the more experienced guys by us newbies...again unlike some I could mention. Stay well up there in Sunny Qld

Paul...will take your advice and do just that. Thankyou very much.

Thanks Rick for your time and help. Si it would seem the first bar has the wrong medal on the end and the second may or may not be legit. Boy this is going to be an interesting hobby. Still I am happy with the two bars. The bar on route is the Albert order with the wreath so that then makes it a Captains bar. Ok good enough for now and as you said not traceable. I think I may just stick to NCO/enlisted men medal bars for now until I learn a lot more about this. Fascinating yet frustrating not to mention expensive. Again really appreciate your time and help. Phil

Whoops...just read Rick's thread on asking questions about items for sale so ignore the question regarding the medal bar that I have yet to receive. I will post it when it arrives and seek your knowledge then but in the mean time the two pictured bars are now mine and I would like to know a bit about them if possible. Another question that springs to mind concerns the bar with the FJ medal....if the recipient was Austrian which I am assuming he was why then would he not have the Austrian Comm war medal as well. These along with the Hungarian Comm medal are common on medal bars that I look at so just wonder why they are not present on this one. As I said I am trying to learn so you have to bear with me. Phil

Not wanting to sound too dumb but does that sort of thing happen...dealers changing with other dealers? Can you recall the other bar that I have indeed purchased with the Albert Order 1st class? I would like your opinion on that one.

Hi Guys, I am a new comer to Imperial items and know very little about the awards and really do need some help from you guys. For a start I have been collecting over ten years but primarily Third Reich items and in particular war badges. I am no expert but after learning the hard way I do know a bit about them and the plethora of fakes that abound. In recent times my interests have changed. So much so that now I am virtually solely interested in medal bars. I only have 5 at the moment and my first three purchases were mixed medal bars with awards from both wars but now I have started to seriously just look at medal bars from World War 1 and want to learn about them. As a married man with a mortgage I cannot spend large amounts on this hobby and indeed have to save and or pay off just about every single purchase so it is important that I get it right. I have already made a bad choice about 6 months ago (see early post) when I purchased from ebay a medal bar which was no good at all. Thankfully the medals were the real thing but the ribbons were modern and the bar a put together. Apart from wasting the money (thankfully its was not a lot) it does leave a sour taste in your mouth. I purchased Tom's book on parade bars of the Third Reich and use it a lot (thanks Tom) but it does not deal with Imperial items in detail. I am going to post two medal bars that I purchased recently and would like your opinions on both. If possible I would like to know what you can say about the man who had that medal bar. I know the original owner cannot be traced but maybe you could tell me if that soldier was an officer or not and maybe where he came from. You see I cant understand how a medal bar can contain different medals from different states. How can a soldier with a Saxon order be also awarded a Wurtemberg medal then also have a Prussian service medal (maybe not accurate but you get what I am trying to say). This confuses me greatly. I dont have it yet but will post it when I get it but I have just spent big for me and purchased a 5 piece bar with EK2, Albert Order Knights Cross 1st class (not with crown), WW1 front fighters medal, Austrian Comm medal and Hungarian Comm medal. This has cost me a fair bit and will take me 5 to 6 months to pay off so I am hoping like hell I have not made a mistake but from my description do you think this medal bar would be ok and would there be a chance to trace the orginal owner? I apologise that this is a lengthy thread but I am keen to learn from you guys so any help will be greatly appreciated and please before answering what to you may be a dumb question, realise that I am not trying to take the mickey and just need help. Thanks in advance and here are the two medal bars...sorry about the scans as they are out of focus but you can get the idea. Phil

Thanks Guys for all your help. I too was leaning towards a medic. Saschaw have you seen this medal bar on Andrea Hueskens web site? I am only new to this game and I have changed my choice to the medal bar he featured with the Albert Order. I will post this bar when it arrives but for now are you familiar with that one ( EK2, Albert order, Front fighter medal and Austrian and Hungarian medal). If so I would like your opinion on it and would there be a chance I could trace this medal bar to its owner. Thanks. Phil

Hi Guys, I am in the process of buying an imperial medal bar which features two Red Cross medals. The first is the German Red Cross medal 2nd class 1924-1934 and the second is the Prussian Red Cross medal 3rd class. As this medal bar features and EK2, Lippe Detmold war merit cross and a Baden 9 year service award, would I be right in saying that the owner of these medals was a medic and worked at the front lines? If not then what were these Red Cross medals awarded for and to who? Many thanks. Phil

Hi Tom, Beautiful medal bar congratulations...also congratulations on your book. Purchased it and love it thanks heaps. Phil Aussie

I ditto Harrier's remarks...late war zinc badge.