johnnymac

Muckaroon, Some of your answers might be in my book. Regards,Jim

Thank you for the comeback I have enjoyed your website as many others do. The Casa Butuller firm, as you wrote, sold several different types of medals, if I'm to understand you correctly. But since Laslo's books, many more official, unofficial and repro medals have been found. Normally when a company is selling an item, the item remains the same unless they are not the maker but the buyer of the item in question. So could it be that Butuller was the only seller "or" the outlet for many medal makers? Look at the medal itself there is more than one difference than just the suspension ring as you suggested. Look at the rays of light going from wing to wing and note how they go from large rays to small rays at the middle and back to larger rays on the other wing. Also as I highlighted in my illustrations, the faces are different as well as the bunch of flowers, dress and the suspensions. I can agree that many unofficial medals may have come from Butuller's firm. However I cannot agree that they should have the same classification as an unofficial type-1 as listed in Laslo's book. I can agree, though, they should be classified as unofficial type-1A and unofficial type-1B , C, D and so on, coming from the firm of Butuller in Lisbon, with maker unknown. Many should realize that Laslo's book was not the definitive edition. As I know my own book (World War I, Victory Medals, by Michels 2014 - being sold on Amazon) is not "the last word" as well. Sorry for book selling plug.

For those who ask me this question, what is the different between re-issue and the late or later issued medals. From my book: Late Issue - With depletion or shortage of existing supply of the original medal or clasp, such a medal or clasp may be a slightly different manifestation of the original due to the use of different manufacturers and/or the availability of the original dies and hubs. It is the sanctioned replacement for the original issued medal. Re-issue - is an original issue medal which has been re-issued at a later date for a different event without any changes to the medal’s overall design. A good example is the U.S. National Defense Service Medal, first issued in 1950-1954 for the Korean War and re-issued again in 1961-1974 during the Vietnam War. This medal continued to be re-issued for at least three different campaigns or events after 1974.

Hello Lambert, welcome back. I ask you, have you look at the new posting in the Portuguese vic section. This medal you just posted above has been talked about there. Regards Jim

There are some who hate when I use words like, FAKE or TO FOOL buyers. I say to them, not all medals were made to fill in a collections ,if they were made to fill in then why is the cost outrageous in most cases. Just think these medals I posted are just the ones I know are out there. I ask you, would you say, medals from 6 on were all made to just fill in a collection. Official type-1 Official type-1 - From the cover of the JOAO DA SILVA catalog. Official type-2 Official type-3 - May be late issue, (not in Laslo' book) and does look a little like # 1? Official type-3 – Could this too be late issue, (not in Laslo' book)? Unofficial type-1 – (illustration from Laslo's book). Unofficial type-1 – Same # 6 with a different suspension. Unofficial type-1 - Same # 6 with a different suspension and gilded. Unofficial type-1 - Same # 6 different suspension a wire loop. Unofficial type-2 - (Cracked die illustration from Laslo's book, with egg shape head)? Reproduction type-1 / M. Delande / Made in France (illustration not in Laslo' book). Reproduction type-2 / Unknown - illustration not in Laslo' book. Reproduction type-3 / Unknown - illustration not in Laslo' book. Reproduction type-4 / Unknown - illustration not in Laslo' book. Reproduction type-5 / Collector Web (illustration not in Laslo' book). (the third photo) Also not in Laslo's book is this wire-loop type. Although on the French website, "Orders of Decorations of medals 1914-1918" they list it as being a recent medal from the establishment of Casa Bulluller and as the Laslo's unofficial type-1? Looking at number 6 in the grouping of 15, number 6 is the one in which Laslo's listed in his book as an unofficial type-1, I ask do you think they are the same as the one from the French website? (the third photo) Just looking at the top of the ladies head and the ring suspension you can noticeably see the spacing between this medal and these other medals 15 above. Also the rays get smaller starting at the wings as it gets to the hole for the ring suspension. To me it is not a match to the Laslo's unofficial medal or the other medals but just another version of the Portuguese Medal. (The second photo) The black and white illustration, the egg shape head medal is listed in Laslo's book as the unofficial type-2 cracked die. Which he said "appears" to be a replacement medal....., I do not think so, as it looks as bad as the last 4 in the grouping of 15. Regards, Jim click on photo

Yes I would say from what I see it is original, nice find. Jim

David, Thank you for the purchase I hope that are finding my book enjoyable and interesting. You are absolutely correct about the one in question on ebay not being in my book. There are at least 15 different types of the Portuguese Victory medals out there. Too many of these reproductions and fake medals were just too costly to buy, like this one in question above with it asking price of $174 USD plus S&H. In my book I only entered medals which I had or were ones my friends had or ones I could get from other victory medal collectors. With that said I will point out that I did post in my book 120 illustrated victory medals showing both the front and reverse view of each medal. Staying on the subject of Portuguese medals, the crack die unofficial type-2 listed by Laslo is another good example of a medal not in my book. Laslo listed in his book: it "appears" to be a very early replacement medal……. The word "appears" to me, sound like there is uncertainty and he cannot confirm it as being made for the purpose he offers. My believe is, it is a fake medal sold to unsuspecting buyers looking for a Portuguese victory medal back in the day, 30s, 40s, 50s and so on. I have 2 Cuban cracked dies medals both marked with AC in a triangle and half word bronze on the rim, both with a ball suspension and every bit a match to the so called Portuguese unofficial type-2 crack die. The Dealer I purchased these Cuban medals from has been selling "all" the interallied medals for years. Where he got his supply from he is not saying. As you can see I have posted the Cuban cracked die medals I have for your interest. Regards, Jim

Hello David, I hope these illustrations will help. Top view (obverse & reverse) is from my book. The bottom left is the one on ebay and the other which matches the one on ebay. If not sure and need help, In my book, I have over 120 (obverse & reverse) views of just inter-allied medals.

Hello Bill it was nice to see someone post something as its been dry lately, and hello you too, Davidck Jim

Hi Bill I was looking while you were posting. note the time stamp., LOL

There is a fake for sale on ebay, if that's the one you are looking at.

Hey Bill, I guess everyone must be on vacation, but, I think its a nice find.

Bill, Manufacturers made not one or two but several medals that were unknown by Laslo in 1992. We post many of these new medals on GMIC all the time. From Laslo's book on the reissue type-1 he wrote, "Contemporary version By S. Johnson. Less detail than official issue." I find to be very vague. Based on his description this medal I listed as the reissue type-1 and mentioned by him, fits his description. Also the last two medals in the third illustration are missing the dots between the E & D. click to enlarge photo

Also Bill, staying on subject, I would like to point out, this medal is not listed in Laslo's book. The Italian official type-3 has a twin official medal which was made and marked with a compact monogram from the firm, F.M. Lorioli & Castelli-Milano. Both the official type-3 & 3A medals are identical to each other except for the monogram used by Lorioli & Castelli. In my book World War I, Victory Medals, I listed and illustrated this second medal as the official type-3A. click photo to enlarge

Hi Bill, lets look at the Italian section in Laslo's book. Throughout Laslo's book, he only illustrated 24 full sets of Interallied medals where he shows both the obverse and the reverse of all the victory medals listed. He also has about 20 semi close-up views of other Interallied victory medals in his book. I did not count the other medals that were not part of the Interallied victory medals, like the Philippine victory medal. Whereas, in my book, I illustrate over 130 medals showing each medal's obverse and reverse side and many close up views of details on these medals. These illustrated medals are ones that I own or could get from a friend. I mention this because, in the Italian section of Laslo's book, he listed 11 known Italian victory medals, but he illustrates only 2 sets: the official type-1 and the re-issue type-1, with 1 additional obverse and reverse view. All six of these illustrations are in black and white photos with no close-up details being pointed out. Laslo listed the reissue type-1 as a contemporary by Johnson. I ask this; can you really tell anything from his black and white photos? To me, it is more like the official type-2 than a contemporary. This illustration below (the first thumbnail) I feel should have been listed as Johnson's second official medal or as at least as a later issue medal. However, lets examine it as the Laslo's reissue type-1. It has the same obverse as the one in Laslo's book on page 55. It has the same legend A, B, C that Laslo pointed out in his book. It also has less detail than the official issue Laslo spoke of in his book. I agree with Laslo as far as less details on this medal than Johnson's first medal. I noted the arched line above the letters ERRA P at the top and the missing dots between the letters E & D on the bottom. I also noted the lacking details in the area I marked with a red box in the middle section. click to enlarge photos

Hi Bill, In the attached thumbnail photo below, the top illustration is the official type-2 In this same thumbnail, in the lower section, it shows the medal you mentioned as being labeled as the re-issue, type1. (click thumbnail to enlarge photo for more details) Note the differences on the lower medal from the upper medal: a) There is a lack of detail in the red box area (lower part of windows frames) b) Also note the missing dot before and after the letters ED. In Laslo's book, as well as in my own book, we both listed this medal as a re-issue type-1. (I just followed Laslo's listing because I did not want to confuse collectors by listing it as what I felt it was, that being a later issue medal.) Here is why I think it should have been listed as a late-issue medal, from my book: Late Issue - With depletion or shortage of existing supply of the original medal, such a medal may be a slightly different manifestation of the original due to the use of different manufacturers and/or the availability of the original dies and hubs. It is the sanctioned replacement for the original issued medal. Re-issue - is an original issue medal which has been re-issued at a later date for a different event without any changes to the medal’s overall design. A good example is the U.S. National Defense Service Medal, first issued in 1950-1954 for the Korean War and re-issued again in 1961-1974 during the Vietnam War. This medal continued to be re-issued for at least three different campaigns or events after 1974. Click the photo to enlarge for details.

who could complain about this one, again I say, nice medal

Very nice

Lambert, That was a lot of time and effort, great work and thanks for sharing Jim

Lambert, That was a lot of time and effort, great work and thanks for sharing Jim

Sorry, I only posted half so here the full posting on ebay.

This was posted on ebay so I posted it.

Bill, I look for "tells" on medals and not so much on size. please don't take me wrong size is important. Here is a "tell" the red line is point at and is found on two other unofficial type-1, plus the one posted above Click on my illustration below to enlarge it Jim

Bill also note this imperfection, high lighted by the red line. It is shown on your medal as well. Regards Jim

Hi Bill, It is the Unofficial type-1, Listed in my book on page 234 or in Laslo book, page 74 (lower left). Unfortunately Laslo has no reverse view of the unofficial type-1 or the unofficial type-2 medals in his book. But by comparing your obverse to the unofficial type-2, There is a full right breast (not so with yours). Again look strictly at the unofficial type-2 in the book, in the area of the head: you will notice there is no hair parting, the head itself is egg shaped, and the neck area looks like a cup turned upside down. By a closer examination you will find many other differences from the unofficial type-1. Regards, Jim This is a view of your medal