HJ Armband - Gebietsfuehrerschule - AHS

[TobyR]

Hi Everyone,

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this armband I recently acquired. As you can see, it is a printed version. However, what makes it interesting are the ink stamps: on the outer side of the armband, is a circular stamp - I can discern one word - Gebietsfuehrerschule (Territory Leader School) - thereafter I'm stuck. At the bottom of the stamp, I suspect it says 'Gebiet [number] and on the right hand side, I imagine is the name of the school. Any ideas? Also, on the inside of the armband is an ink stamp for AHS - Adolf-Hitler-Schule.

I believe the armband is original; although, please correct me if I am mistaken. It can't be too difficult to add some stamps to an armband. However, the lettering in the stamps looks correct for the period. Also, the consistency between the Gebietsfuehrerschule stamp and the AHS stamp. Am I correct to think that attendance at a Gebeitsfuehrerschule followed attendance at an AHS? Can anyone enlighten me as to the relationship between the two types of school?

Thanks for looking.

All the best,

Toby.

[TobyR]

Here's a close-up of the stamp;

[TobyR]

The inside of the armband, showing AHS stamp.

[TobyR]

Any thoughts?

Toby.

[Bob Coleman]

Toby-

I have never encountered a printed HJ armband. I also find the AHS stamp to be quite spurious. The combination of stamps also does not make any sense. Personaly, I would not want this piece in my collection.

[TobyR]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for replying. I do remember reading in the Phil Baker book (one of them anyway) that there were no printed HJ armbands. I adopted this viewpoint for some time but following conversations with a couple of collectors began to wonder if I was mistaken.

Something else I had noticed is that the only AHS stamps I could find on items of clothing and equipment were in a basic 'font'. The stamp on this mimics the embroidery style on AHS straps.

Anyway, I will happily go with your view on this. Better safe than sorry.

All the best,

Toby.

Edited August 25, 2006 by TobyR

[XEN]

Hi, I have a printed armband and was initially sceptical about them. Angolia says that printed armbands were banned by regulations. For me this can be interpreted as an attempt to ban further production of the printed version i.e. they did exist and were then banned. Why ban something that doesn't exist? Yes, there is a flaw in my reasoning in that I wasn't there during the TR to see printed versions being worn but we know that there are printed armbands around that pass the tests. And they're cheaper because no-one wants them

[Bob Coleman]

Hi, I have a printed armband and was initially sceptical about them. Angolia says that printed armbands were banned by regulations. For me this can be interpreted as an attempt to ban further production of the printed version i.e. they did exist and were then banned. Why ban something that doesn't exist? Yes, there is a flaw in my reasoning in that I wasn't there during the TR to see printed versions being worn but we know that there are printed armbands around that pass the tests. And they're cheaper because no-one wants them

PRINTED HJ ARMBANDS ARE CHEAPER BECAUSE THEY ARE REPRODUCTION. THEY FIRST BEGAN TO APPEAR IN THE MID 60'S ALONG WITH PRINTED VARIATIONS OF FOREIGN HJ UNITS. HJ ARMBANDS ARE A VERY COMMON ITEM. IN MY EXPERIENCE OF FIFTY YEARS OF COLLECTING, I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED ONE THAT HAD ANY PROVENANCE. I ALSO HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE THAT I BELIEVED TO BE CORRECT.

BOB

[XEN]

PRINTED HJ ARMBANDS ARE CHEAPER BECAUSE THEY ARE REPRODUCTION. THEY FIRST BEGAN TO APPEAR IN THE MID 60'S ALONG WITH PRINTED VARIATIONS OF FOREIGN HJ UNITS. HJ ARMBANDS ARE A VERY COMMON ITEM. IN MY EXPERIENCE OF FIFTY YEARS OF COLLECTING, I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED ONE THAT HAD ANY PROVENANCE. I ALSO HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE THAT I BELIEVED TO BE CORRECT.

BOB

With respect Bob, you've stated your opinion but haven't addressed the point I raised about the regulation mentioned by Angolia. Banning something implies that it existed. It doesn't HAVE to mean that but it CAN. This introduces doubt into the assumption that a printed armband is always bad. As you know, in the early un-regulated days of the HJ some items (including the armbands) were home-made.

A quick edit: The main reason no-one wants the printed version is because of mistrust i.e. the majority thinks they are bad. That IMHO doesn't necessarily follow..

Edited December 13, 2006 by XEN

[Bob Coleman]

With respect Bob, you've stated your opinion but haven't addressed the point I raised about the regulation mentioned by Angolia. Banning something implies that it existed. It doesn't HAVE to mean that but it CAN. This introduces doubt into the assumption that a printed armband is always bad. As you know, in the early un-regulated days of the HJ some items (including the armbands) were home-made.

BANNING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY WERE EVER MADE OR EXISTED. ANGOLIA'S BOOKS ARE FULL OF FAKES, PUT TOGETHERS AND BAD INFORMATION. I WILL TAKE MY FIFTY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE OVER YOUR POSITION ANYDAY. YOU FIRST HAVE TO SUBSTANTIATE PRINTED ARMBANDS WERE MADE. NO SUCH PROOF HAS EVER BEEN FORTHCOMING. THE REGULATION YOU CITED ONLY STATES THEY CANNOT BE MADE-NOT THAT THEY WERE MADE AND PRODUCTION SHOULD CEASE. IF YOU WISH TO BELIEVE YOUR PIECE IS ORIGINAL, DO SO.

BOB

[XEN]

Just wanted to add that my comments are not meant in connection with the armband shown above which in my opinion is not good. I was talking in general about printed armbands.

[XEN]

Yes ok Bob, stop shouting. I am happy with the printed armband but have to say that I wasn't defending it in my posts above. My comments are meant generally. You show me your proof and I'll agree with you. And that is why this hobby is so absorbing and challenging. Sometimes no-one knows the answer 100%.

[Bob Coleman]

XEN-

THE PROOF IS IN WHAT HAS BEEN OBSERVED IN FIFTY YEARS OF COLLECTING-AN ERA IN WHICH MUCH ORIGINAL MATERIAL COULD BE DIRECTLY AQUIRED, VIEWED AT SHOWS, SEEN IN OTHER COLLECTIONS. AN ERA WHEN THERE WAS AN ABUNDANCE OF MATERIAL AND FEW BUYERS. AN ERA WHEN REAL HANDS ON EXPERIENCE WAS VALUED. TODAY, EVERYTHING I HEAR FROM YOUNGER COLLECTORS IS "PROVE IT" OR "DISPROVE IT." WHAT IS YOUR LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE? JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION. THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT. QUOTING WHAT YOU HAVE FROM JOHN ANGOLIA'S BOOK LEAVES ONY THE WORDING UP TO INTERPRETATION. WITH AS COMMON AN ITEM THE HJ ARMBAND IS, BY NOW, CERTAINLY MULTIPLE COPIES WOULD HAVE APPEARED. PRINTED ARMBANDS ARE A WARTIME EXPEDIANT WHEN IT CAME TO THE POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS. WHERE ARE ALL OF THESE SUPPOSED PERIOD PRINTED HJ ARMBANDS THAT WERE BANNED? WE KNOW THE GERMANS NEVER THREW ANYTHING OUT THAT MIGHT HAVE FUTURE USE.

BY THE WAY, I AM NOT SHOUTING . THIS IS THE WAY I WRITE SO MY OLD EYES CAN SEE THE LARGER LETTERS. SHOUTING IS SOMETHING I DO WITH MY VOCAL CHORDS, NOT MY FINGERS.

BOB

[XEN]

QUOTING WHAT YOU HAVE FROM JOHN ANGOLIA'S BOOK LEAVES ONY THE WORDING UP TO INTERPRETATION.

...which was my point. I don't know where he got that information from but I'm assuming he didn't just make it up.

I have the utmost respect for your experience. All I was saying was that based on Angolia's comment a doubt exists. As you say, the individual owner of any disputed item has to be happy with it.

[Tony]

Hello,

I wasn't going to make any comment here as this isn't my collecting area but, would like to add something my father-in-law once said.

We were chatting about this and that and I asked him a general question about armbands, he mentioned having a printed version in the HJ.

Unfortunately he couldn't remember what the other boys had, maybe he was the only one with a printed version, maybe his memory was playing tricks, he was 58 years old at the time and hadn't been a member of the HJ for about 41 years.

Tony

[XEN]

Thanks Tony. With due respect to Bob's experience I believe that these printed armbands existed during the TR. Information from ex-HJ members is what we need and it is good to hear the comment made by your father-in-law. I have a sneaking feeling though that even if he still had that armband it would not be enough to convince some collectors. Bizarre I know but I guess we can blame the damn fakers for that....

[douglynn]

is now a good time to get the box from under the bed with the 600 i got a few years ago lol ido love to read these debates,as a new hj collector i am learning all the time

[Bob Coleman]

THE REGULATION MENTIONED IN ANGOLIA IN NO WAY IMPLIES THAT PRINTED VERSIONS WERE BEING MADE. SIMPLY, IT STATES THAT PRINTED VERSIONS ARE NOT TO BE PRODUCED. IF PRINTED VERSIONS HAD BEEN PRODUCED, IN THE PAST 61 YEARS, BEING A MASS PRODUCED ITEM, CERTAINLY ONES WOULD HAVE APPEARED IN THE SOUVENIRS OF VETERANS OR AMONG THE ARTIFACTS LEFT OVER BY A FORMER MEMBER OF THE HITLER YOUTH. SS ARMBANDS WERE ALSO NEVER PRODUCED IN A PRINTED VERSION. I WOULD ALSO EXPECT SOME OF THESE ARMBANDS TO STILL RETAIN A PROPER RZM TAG. THE CONCEPT OF "I THINK" IS NOT AN ACCEPTED MANNER OF HISTORICALLY CATALOGING AN ITEM.

AFTER 41 YEARS, I WOULD CHALLENGE ANYONE TO REMEMBER IN DETAIL MINUTE FEATURES OF CLOTHING THEY WORE AT THE TIME. MEMORIES CAN FADE. CONFUSION CAN ARISE DUE TO THE PASSAGE OF TIME. WAS THE MEMORY OF A PRINTED ARMBAND ACTUALLY THAT OF A VOLKSTURM ARMBAND? HOW WAS THE ORIGINAL QUESTION ASKED? wAS IT LEADING?

WHEN AN ESTABLISHED, RECOGINISED AUTHORITY OR COLLECTOR CAN PROVIDE A PRINTED HJ ARMBAND THAT HAS PROVENANCE EITHER TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER OR A VETERAN WHO BROUGHT IT BACK AMONG HIS SOUVENIRS, CREEDANCE CAN BE GIVEN TO THE PERIOD EXISTANCE OF SUCH AN ITEM. THIS FORUM IS A PLACE TO STUDY ESTABLISHED FACT. EDUCATED GUESSES DO NOT FIT IN TO THAT CRITERIA.

AT THIS POINT, I WILL SAY NO MORE ON THIS SUBJECT AS IT HAS ALREADY CONSUMED MORE SPACE THAN IT IS WORTH.

BOB

[--dj--Joe]

I have some thoughts on the subject, but after reading the above, why bother.

--dj--Joe

[XEN]

I have some thoughts on the subject, but after reading the above, why bother.

--dj--Joe

LOL I was thinking exactly that while I was reading his post.

Unfortunately I'm going to HAVE to answer him. Bob, your experience isn't what this thread is about. By shouting, and yes, you ARE shouting - the giveaway being that you seem perfectly capable of reading our posts despite saying that you have to write in big letters when answering because of your failing eyesight. Why don't you write big first and then convert back to small once you're happy with the result? Upload at that point and no-one will misunderstand you.

So anyway, by shouting at us, or rather, shouting down at us you aren't doing yourself any favours. I've only just joined this site and almost the first person I meet (you) starts bellowing at me for daring to suggest that a sentence in a book could be read in one of two ways. Read back - THAT is what our discourse was about. Now you seem to have turned it into a bout of 'I'm the expert here!' self-justification. Yes, your experience is important, especially to you clearly, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking beyond the text-book answer. Oh I could really get this one going by starting a new thread entitled 'So, this HJ badge for Distinguished Foreigners - Did it really only come in brown originally?'

I agree with what you say about leading questions etc when asking ex-HJ about equipment etc. These old men shouldn't be completely disregarded though should they? You seem to be suggesting that their age precludes them from giving any valuable information at all. How old are you by the way?

Edited to add a bit...

Edited December 15, 2006 by XEN

[railhouse]

Hm if some one have collected for 40 years i belived we need their opinions. I have collected HJ items some years now but i never seen any orginal printed armbands and i have not seen any prof that they have exsisted regards tomas ps XEN if some one have started to collect HJ in july this year and dident know any thing at that time how can you be some expert after 6 month

[XEN]

Hm if some one have collected for 40 years i belived we need their opinions. I have collected HJ items some years now but i never seen any orginal printed armbands and i have not seen any prof that they have exsisted regards tomas ps XEN if some one have started to collect HJ in july this year and dident know any thing at that time how can you be some expert after 6 month

Ah Railhouse. Well all your years of experience haven't yet been able to convince you whether those HJ table medals you have in your collection are real or not have they? If I were a suspicious person then I'd be suspicious about whether you were here because I refused to take your unsolicited (and frankly very unfriendly) 'advice' when I bought mine on Estand.

If you read the thread again you'll see that I showed respect for Bob's experience at all times. This stopped when he climbed onto 'Belligerent', his dappled grey high horse, and started lambasting me for daring to think differently to him. I then became unfriendly. I call that fair.

You said: 'XEN if some one have started to collect HJ in july this year and dident know any thing at that time how can you be some expert after 6 month'

Answer: I never claimed anything of the sort either here or anywhere else! Did YOU just start buying things without having a clue what you were doing? No, of course not. I spent a long time getting as much information as possible before I ever opened my wallet. Yes, I still got stung twice but who didn't get stung when they first started out?

I'm a nice person and am always happy to help when I can but basically I just don't like puffed-up, pompous people in any sphere of life so hey, live with it.

[douglynn]

Ah Railhouse. Well all your years of experience haven't yet been able to convince you whether those HJ table medals you have in your collection are real or not have they? If I were a suspicious person then I'd be suspicious about whether you were here because I refused to take your unsolicited (and frankly very unfriendly) 'advice' when I bought mine on Estand.

If you read the thread again you'll see that I showed respect for Bob's experience at all times. This stopped when he climbed onto 'Belligerent', his dappled grey high horse, and started lambasting me for daring to think differently to him. I then became unfriendly. I call that fair.

You said: 'XEN if some one have started to collect HJ in july this year and dident know any thing at that time how can you be some expert after 6 month'

Answer: I never claimed anything of the sort either here or anywhere else! Did YOU just start buying things without having a clue what you were doing? No, of course not. I spent a long time getting as much information as possible before I ever opened my wallet. Yes, I still got stung twi gents gents please all get backin your prams

[railhouse]

FAKE too the day i can finds proof regards tomas F.T.W

[XEN]

Well thanks for your detailed reply railhouse....

FAKE too the day i can finds proof regards tomas F.T.W

Exactly... I would suggest that you wait until you ACTUALLY have the proof before sounding off about it next time. As you know there are many HJ items which cannot be 100% positively attributed or identified as authentic originals. I agree that the table medals fall into this category and as I said to you back then - some like them, some don't. Your mistake was to bombard me with unfriendly and unsolicited PMs in which you attempted to force your 'expertise' on me. You admit that you STILL don't know whether they are fake or real so I'm having a bit of a problem understanding what you were trying to achieve. I am as happy to have them as I am to have the printed armband because doubt exists about their authenticity which makes them cheap. I'm happy to buy little items like these every now and again and see them more as a project in progress rather than as a part of my collection.

Your second mistake was to bring something I said to you in a PM into this discussion. How long I've been collecting is irrelevant as I'm not the one stamping around the internet forcing my opinions on others. I devote a lot of time to this hobby but I only give advice when I'm sure of the answer and I try to do this in a friendly manner. In the last six months I've met some really friendly and knowledgeable people from whom I've learned a lot and I'm very grateful for that.

What I said originally about the armband which started this thread was NOT advice. I was talking theory.

Collecting time is relative: for all I know you might have spent your 'years of collecting' talking to the wrong people so telling me that you have a right to dispense your 'knowledge' based on a time span totally and utterly fails to impress me because I have absolutely no idea who you are.

And finally to Bob, I totally agree that an ex-HJ boy can be lead into giving the answer the collectors want to hear. However, and again, this is only a theory - with something like an armband which he would have touched often and looked at with pride it is possible that he would at least be able to remember if it were totally flat and smooth as opposed to raised due to the patch. This possibility combined with ambiguous statements like the one I mentioned from 'Angolia' just make me think that it should be discussed.