Question about British Helmets

[Hun Helmet]

I have a 1942 Stamped Brit helmet. Had it since I was 13 but never considered looking for a date until just the other day. I always assumed it was post war.

I looked on ebay to see they are practically worthless. Why are WWII American helmets priced in the hundreds and why have Brit lids lagged so far behind?

[Hun Helmet]

Anorther photo

[peter monahan]

Hun

At aguess there were literally millions more of the British helmets made - GB, Canada, Australia and all the colonies. A few US troops even wore them early in War Two, I believe. May also have to do with the sales venue - more US buyers on Ebay than anyone else? (Jusy a thought)

Peter

[Avitas]

These are getting harder to find though, and prices are beginning to go up a bit for Commonwealth helmets, especially for specifically marked types and ones with wartime art on them (I'll show my example). I think that Ebay is never a good measure of value as depending on who is bidding at the time there can be wild discrepancies in price over the same type of item that is listed on different days. Also the whole price of shipping a heavy steel helmet nowadays kind of turns people off so if someone bids $20 on a Brit Helmet it actually costs them around $40-$50 to actually acquire it, so I always take into consideration the huge shipping costs of heavy items like these on Ebay (much better to find a helmet in person I might add). Yours with the liner would carry a premium as they are not as common as the shells, and it appears to be in really good shape. It is slightly different than my Canadian models it appears, but it may just be the angle of the pic. Here is my soldier-painted example (I think it was meant to be the "Flash" comic book character's helmet as in the '40's the Flash wore a Brit doughboy helmet with these wings on the side) from the Canadian minesweeper "HMCS Minas" in ww2.

Cheers,

Pat

[Avitas]

Hun Helmet do you possibly have a side view? I think it is just the angles of our pics but yours looks "flatter" than mine. Here is a side shot of mine to compare (Mine is stamped 1942). Also I hope more people contribute to this topic as there hasn't been enough chat about these fine helmets I would say.

Cheers,

Pat

[Tony]

Also I hope more people contribute to this topic as there hasn't been enough chat about these fine helmets I would say.

Cheers,

Pat

Here's some info I have on the MKII Brodie, I can't remember where I got it, probably somewhere online as there doesn't seem to be any books on the subject.

Helmet and liner maker marks:

Canadian made MKII

C.L./C. - Canadian Motorlamp Co.

G.S.W. - General Steel Wares and Aluminum Goods

A.G./.C. - General Steel Wares and Aluminum Goods

British made MKII

HBH - Harrison Bros.&Howson (Sheffield) 1938-40

JSS - Joseph Sonkey & Sons (Bilston) 1938-41

WD - Wiliam Dobson & Son (Birmingham) 1938-40

B.M.B - Briggs Motor Bodies, Ltd (Dagenham) 1939-43 (Ford Dagenham after the war I think)

RO&Co - Rubery Owen & Co Ltd (Darlaston) 1939-43

CS - Clydesdale Stamping Co. Ltd (Dudley) 1939-40

F&L - Fisher & Ludlow Ltd (Birmingham) 1939-42

EC&Co Ltd. - E Camelinat & Co Ltd (Birmingham) 1939-42

AMC - Austin Motor Co. (Cowley) 1941

British made liners

Helmets Ltd - Helmets Ltd (Wheathampstead) 1937-41

Vero - Everett W Vero & Co (London) 1937-44

JCS & W Ltd. - J Compton Sons & Webb Ltd (London) 1938-43

BH & G - Barrow Hepburn & Gale Ltd (London) 1939-40

TTC - Teddy Toy Co. Ltd (Dagenham) 1939-42

BMB - Briggs Motor Bodies Ltd (Dagenham) 1939-45

SNL - S E Norris Ltd (Dagenham) 1940

CCL - Christy & Co Ltd (London) 1940-45

AG & Co

CG & S

W & LC

PTB

G & S

FFL

N.Z. made MKII

Dunlop - Dunlop Corporation

Greece

Granular paint on standard MKII helmet but with a liner with metal band and glossy vinyl lining in a

brown color .The liner support struts were replaced by metal. The liner was attached to the hole in the top of the helmet by two riveted (no nut & bolt) shiny metal strips.

S.Africa

Broad arrow inside 'U' - Jager & Rand

TSP - Transvaal Steel Pressing Syndicate

The South African made helmet has the liner with oval padding in the crown, similar to some British home front/police liners but is riveted instead of the nut & bolt fitting.

Singapore made MKII

These have the rim is rolled under and doesn't have the standard ring round the brim which can be seen on other MKII helmets.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Tony

[Avitas]

Thanks for the maker info Tony

The "Flash" HMCS Minas helmet I posted earlier is marked "C.L./C. 1940" , a Canadian maker, and I also have an A.R.P. helmet marked "G.S.W., D.P. & H" , also a Canadian maker. I wonder what the "D.P.&H" stands for though as it is not listed on Tony's list, probably just further company classification from the General Steel Wears and Aluminum Goods company (G.S.W.). Here is a pic of the ARP helmet with the extra markings.

Cheers and thanks again and let's hear some more opinions on why these fine helmets are worth SO much less than all of their counterparts in ww2 helmets. Also, I assume the NZ, Singapore, Greek and South African and Canadian made ones may carry a small premium as they were probably rarer. Just my guess though.

Cheers,

Pat

[Tony]

Pat,

I think the prices are low because there's just not the same worldwide interest in Commonwealth/Empire 20th century militaria as there is in US or German. Some people watching Hollywood films probably wouldn't even know that anyone apart from the US, Japan and Germany took part in WWII.

Tony

Edited September 7, 2006 by Tony

[Hun Helmet]

Canadian made MKII

C.L./C. - Canadian Motorlamp Co.

You solved another puzzel. Mine is stamped with the above C.L./C mark and next to that is 1942.

Mike

[Hun Helmet]

Pat,

I think the prices are low because there's just not the same worldwide interest in British 20th century militaria as there is in US or German. Some people watching Hollywood films probably wouldn't even know that anyone apart from the US, Japan and Germany took part in WWII.

Tony

I thought about this as a reason today in fact. As if so many people have no clue on the British contribution to WWII. Sad but true.

Anyway my helmet is really flat in person. It looks darn funny on my head it's so flat. I will get another photo soon. Till then keep talking.

Mike

PS, I'd think a WWII helmet is a WWII helmet. Sad to see US helmets up to 500 dollars. I mean you can get a post war US M1 for 20 bucks un issued!

[Kev in Deva]

Here is my soldier-painted example (I think it was meant to be the "Flash" comic book character's helmet as in the '40's the Flash wore a Brit doughboy helmet with these wings on the side) from the Canadian minesweeper "HMCS Minas" in ww2.

Cheers,

Pat

Pat if he was serving on a Ship, then he aint no soldier, he is a sailor

Kevin in Deva.

[Avitas]

OOPS OF course, the SAILOR who painted this helmet I called him by his proper title on other posts but I guess I missed this one. CHeers Kevin and have a great day over there in Transylvania,

Pat

[Hun Helmet]

More photos

[Hun Helmet]

top view

[Hun Helmet]

Liner screw on top

[TerryB]

I sincerely believe that most US helmets sold as WWII surplus at astronomical prices are, for the most part, fakes.

Look at the US eBay and notice all the "genuine, WWII para helmets (or red cross marked Medics") for example. Fakey, fakey....(notice that none of them are from Fort Buffalo Chip, South Dakota, circa 1979 although Lord knows enough of them never left the states.)

I would never, never buy a US helmet on eBay unless I personally knew the dealer and he was willing to fully endorse its authenticity and stake his reputation on that.

TerryB

[fjcp]

I thought I'd add my little helmet to the mix.

It's not in great shape I fear, but it has "character" lots of scribbles and little drawings on it that could only have been done by its original owner!( well I hope that's the case anyway)

The liner is marked "Jager Rand , U (with arrow) and 1942.This seems reasonable since we got it while living in South Africa back in the '80s.

I believe the AFS stands for "Air Formation Signals" but I'm not sure.

The colours painted on the back of the helmet are I believe further evidence for my guess, but I must confess that what I know on this subject is dangerously little.

Anything anybody could add would be most appreciated!

Edited September 11, 2006 by fjcp

[fjcp]

One of the scribbles reads "K... Walker", although the first name is hard to make out since the paint covers part of it.

Thanks in advance.

Edited September 10, 2006 by fjcp

[Tony]

One of the scribbles reads "K... Walker", although the first name is hard to make out since the paint covers part of it.

Thanks in advance.

That is a nice example of a S.A. helmet, it even has the 3 holes at the rear which I believe was common for S. African manufacture (for a neck flap). I always thought AFS was for Auxiliary Fire Service.

[Pylon1357]

That is a nice example of a S.A. helmet, it even has the 3 holes at the rear which I believe was common for S. African manufacture (for a neck flap). I always thought AFS was for Auxiliary Fire Service.

Tony please explain this theroy of the three holes being a sign of a SA produced lid. I was always under the assumption that the holes were drilled post war usually Belgum or Dutch to be used as Fire Brigade lids. Tjis was done as there was such an abundance of MkII lids after the war.

[Tony]

Tony please explain this theroy of the three holes being a sign of a SA produced lid. I was always under the assumption that the holes were drilled post war usually Belgum or Dutch to be used as Fire Brigade lids. Tjis was done as there was such an abundance of MkII lids after the war.

Are you thinking of the helmets that didn't pass quality control for fighting troops? These usually had small holes punched into the brim, I've seen 3 holes arranged in a triangle shape and 4 holes arranged in a square shape. They are normally found nearer to the chinstrap attachment.

Those at the rear of a South African and sometimes desert used helmet are there for attaching a neck flap for sun protection (don't know where I read this but it has made me keep an eye out for them since then).

I think Belgium started making their own lids soon after the liberation, a typical Belgian made helmet shell has (as far as I know) an indentation at the top of the dome where the liner bolt sits, Brit and Commonwealth helmets don't have this feature. No doubt Belgium and other liberated countries bought up old stock of poor quality helmets for their own use too.

[Pylon1357]

I'm not thinking of the reject helmets. At least I don't believe they were rejects. I recall seeing many lids painted with these holes in them for a leather neck flap/protector. I was sure these were for the Fire Brigade BUT I will reveiw my notes and do a search to see what I can come up with.

I have to wonder if Roger Lucy is a member of this forum?? As far a Commonwealth lids, he is IMO one of the best.

[Tony]

Yes you are correct, there were those too. I had forgotten all about them but weren't they late war issue and only in green? I saw a photo of one a long, long time ago.

Let us know what you find.

Tony

[Peter_Suciu]

...I'd think a WWII helmet is a WWII helmet. Sad to see US helmets up to 500 dollars. I mean you can get a post war US M1 for 20 bucks un issued!

Same with Soviet helmets. An SSh-40 dated prior to 1945 is worth $300+. A 1948 dated SSh-40 sells for about $30-50. They're completely the same, and there is no telling that a 1944 dated helmet even saw action or was issued. The Soviets produced so many shells, and many of those 1948 shells may have even been stamped out in 1944, just not issued until 1948!

I would also add that the biggest thing is the lack of quality book on the subject. Chris Armold and Mark Reynosa really helped spark interest in the M1 helmets. The books chronicled the differences of the helmets, showed that there were different liners and covers to collect too.

The thing about the British helmets is that they're all very much the same. I still think it is a collectible helmet, but compared to the pomp of the previous British helmets (such as the Foreign Service Helmet, Home Service, Cavalry helmets, etc.), the steel MkII is kind of plain.

The British Army still does uniforms very well. But the combat gear is sort of drab!

[servicepub]

There is one book on Canadian-made helmets " Tin Lids" by Roger Lucy examines the use and manufacture of combat helmets by the Canadian military from 1916 to the present.