Some British and Commonwealth medals

[Laurence Strong]

Well here we go...another slope to slide down. After veiwing Ed's and other people's posts on Commonwealth medals I have taken the plunge.

The first one to show up:

India General Service 1908 type (I believe) with "North West Frontier 1935"

Named to

1-G-11986 W-CARR Jumma Khan 1 IHC

I wonder how many jerries of water he had to handle in a day.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Laurence Strong

[Laurence Strong]

A little dinged up, but it has a nice patina to it

[Laurence Strong]

Here is the gent's name.

I have a couple more coming in, including a medal bar .

Thanks for looking and stay tuned.

[Laurence Strong]

Another that came in

A 1936 India General Service with both NWF bars

TB-171638 Driver Bhagat Ram R.I.A.S.C. (A. TPT.) Royal Indian Army Service Corps ( Animal Transport)

[Laurence Strong]

The reverse

[Laurence Strong]

The name stamped

[Laurence Strong]

I hope Ed will cast his eye over this medal bar and give it the thumbs up

A group of seven medals to 1214303 Dvr Haq Nawaz. RPA comprising -

Pakistan Independence Medal (this the only one named)

Pakistan General Service Medal clasp KASHMIR 1948

1956 Republic Medal

1965 War with India Medal

1939/45 Star, Burma Star and War Medal.

[Laurence Strong]

The reverse

[Laurence Strong]

The name stamp

[Laurence Strong]

Ed is looking

[Ed_Haynes]

Well, er, the artillery was, as they assert, "ubique", so how to tell?

The big problem is, of course, the order of wearing. The 1385 Tamgha-i-Jang (War Medal 1965) should be second, after the GSM. A capital crime, no, a cause of concern, yes, and big concern. Given the truly MASSIVE number of Pakistani fakes . . . very unsure. Personally, I'd have given it a pass. Sorry, Laurence .

One named gong . . . to artillery driver . . . and some additional all-unnamed gongs mounted out of order . . . ???

[Chris Boonzaier]

One named gong . . . to artillery driver . . . and some additional all-unnamed gongs mounted out of order . . . ???

although... a collector may have mounted them IN order.....

I have seen some strange mountings 8both German and South African) to poor workingm men who mounted their own medlas.

Am I right in thinking that whether it be mounted in the right order or not.... the named medal is the only one that should be named anyway?

[Ed_Haynes]

I doubt this is a collector's mis-mounting. I'd suspect either:

1- the veteran's mis-mounting

or

2- the dealer's mis-mounting

And I'd wager (a lot) on #2. And I think I can tell you the name of dealer in Rawalpindi who is responsible. He has sacks of named Pakistan Medals (yes, the only one normally named for Pakistanis) and of all the other common (and some not-so-common) medals, and he plays "one of bag 1, one of bag 3, one of bag 4, etc." games. I watched him for 3 hours one nice May afternoon in Rawalpindi. He even "ages" the freshly mounted "groups" (with sand paper and "dirty" water). Many come to a major London auction house (which ought to know better -- but the "groups" sell).

Absent provenance, I'd view most Pakistani "groups" as no more than a sum of their parts.

I'd say that this"group" is a named Pakistan Medal mis-married with some other gongs.

[Laurence Strong]

Dang that was not the thumbs up I wanted Thanks Ed.

[Ed_Haynes]

Dang that was not the thumbs up I wanted Thanks Ed.

Sorry, mate.

[Ed_Haynes]

And looking, the mounting bar is a four-holer. Some faker saving money??

[Ed_Haynes]

The others are nice, though!

[Laurence Strong]

Are the medals themselves real or do you think they are the "tailors" medals? If nothing else I can strip it down and salvage the individual medals as such.

Sorry, mate.

Hey no biggie Ed, I should have asked you but I had just bothered you about those individual ones and did not want to bother you again so soon

Edited October 11, 2006 by Laurence Strong

[Ed_Haynes]

I have no doubt that these are original and legitimate medals. It is just their "group" status that bothers me.

[Avitas]

Well I guess the important thing is that they are all originals Larry, speaking from someone who had a lot of fakes in my early buys. It does really bother me that these "dealers" who claim to respect the history of their items will go and falsify patinas and groupings to make more profit. Root of all evil I guess Nice medals regardless of grouping classifications.

Cheers,

Pat

[Laurence Strong]

Thanks Pat

Ed is right of course..the question i want to ask is did he pick the right option?;

I doubt this is a collector's mis-mounting. I'd suspect either:

1- the veteran's mis-mounting

or

2- the dealer's mis-mounting

I had a 700k+ road trip to move and rack the rig the day after Ed gave his opinion, so at oh-dark-thirty in the morning medal bar in tow Ientered my trusty steed, I had lots of time to think and peruse the medals bar- and I must admit I scared the sh t out of a few drivers in the process, however as i drove a couple points started to stick out that made me wonder.

Had there been a missing medal, a medal that should not have been there, or a visible fake, I would have tossed it. I was very close to tearing it down into the individual medals but....

Ed said:

And I'd wager (a lot) on #2. And I think I can tell you the name of dealer in Rawalpindi who is responsible. He has sacks of named Pakistan Medals (yes, the only one normally named for Pakistanis) and of all the other common (and some not-so-common) medals, and he plays "one of bag 1, one of bag 3, one of bag 4, etc." games. I watched him for 3 hours one nice May afternoon in Rawalpindi. He even "ages" the freshly mounted "groups" (with sand paper and "dirty" water). Many come to a major London auction house (which ought to know better -- but the "groups" sell).

.. And that is what was niggling in my mind, if this was a "one of bag 1, one of bag 3, one of bag 4....tailored" bar would you not excpect some level of equal and consistent layout of the medals?

The symmetry of the layout on this bar runs the gamut from full ribbon to just under half, and points in between..

Ed also stated:

Well, er, the artillery was, as they assert, "ubique", so how to tell?

The big problem is, of course, the order of wearing. The 1385 Tamgha-i-Jang (War Medal 1965) should be second, after the GSM. A capital crime, no, a cause of concern, yes, and big concern. Given the truly MASSIVE number of Pakistani fakes . . . very unsure. Personally, I'd have given it a pass. Sorry, Laurence .

One named gong . . . to artillery driver . . . and some additional all-unnamed gongs mounted out of order . . . ???

I will over the next few posts state my view of what happed with this bar then open the floor for everone to state your pro's and con's

I think I can show why the ribbons are as they are and why the 1385 Tamgha-i-Jang is out of order.

Now this is based on the hypothesis that the medals are in fact the property of Dvr Haq Nawaz.

Unless Ed knows of a data bank where we can find out, thats a question that can never be satisfactorily answered

First off and what is important is that unless my eyes decive me it is in fact a 5 medal bar.

[Laurence Strong]

So based on the previous hypothesis, after the Independence and 48 war in the Kashmir his 3 medal bar would have had to be replaced. wether he went down to the souk and had Hassan make up a new one, or he was issued one by the grateful Government of a new nation his bar would have looked similar to the cobbled one I have posted below

[Laurence Strong]

When you look at the medals on the bar you see that the last one is placed full ribbon on the bar as it should be.

[Laurence Strong]

More important the first 2 medals are also full ribbon which would be cosistent with a 5 place bar

[Laurence Strong]

And here is where I think the vet started to adjust his bar, some time prior to 1965 he received the Tamgha-i-Jamhuria 1375. By this time he might be married with a family (5 kids, 4 girls and the last one "Thank Allah" a boy ) so instead of running out to the tailor he places it on the bar by setting it approx 1/3 behind the Tamgha-i-Diffa and maybe over laps the 1939 - 45 star a bit also, At this point order of precedence would still be maintained.

As you can see it is only just slightly placed behind the second medal