Soviet Capture of Medals

[Guest Darrell]

Guys,

There was a discussion a while back. I believe it involved either Dave or Rick about the Capture Medals that had the incorrect dates on the reverse. It was "believed" that these were not REAL and were 1990'ish fantasy pieces made to deceive collectors. Anyone remember this thread or exactly what the discussion centered around?

OR .. anyone have further comments about these?

Thanks.

[Riley1965]

Darrell,

I just sent my manuscript about Soviet Campaign Medals to OMSA for publishing. The medal for the Defense of Kiev has a third version which is the mint error on the reverse. Instead of saying"For Our Soviet Fatherland it has a date.The Medal for the Liberation of Belgrade also has a mint error on the reverse.

I'll dig up the pics

Doc

Edited October 5, 2006 by Riley1965

[Guest Darrell]

Darrell,

I just sent my manuscript about Soviet Campaign Medals to OMSA for publishing. The medal for the Defense of Kiev has a third version which is the mint error on the reverse. Instead of saying"For Our Soviet Fatherland it has a date.The Medal for the Liberation of Belgrade also has a mint error on the reverse.

I'll dig up the pics

Doc

Hi Doc, I know what they look like ... it's just that there was some discussion a while back that these were not period, but recently made fantasy pieces.

[Riley1965]

Well, everything I found while doing the research for the OMSA Medal Note including some phone calls came to one conclusion...These were genuine mint errors and not fantasy pieces.

Doc

[Ed_Haynes]

Discussion? "Discussion"? Where? By whom??

Lots of folks can "discuss", but unless they have done the reasearch, . . . ???

(And good luck with JOMSA, Mike! )

Edited October 5, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Darrell]

Discussion? "Discussion"? Where? By whom??

Lots of folks can "discuss", but unless they have done the reasearch, . . . ???

The discussion was backed up with some good arguments by some respected members if I recollect. I don't think it was idle gossip. I'm pulling my hair out trying to locate the thread.

[Riley1965]

Darrell,

I'll save you some of your hair. In the 1990's "Many Kievs and a few Belgrades mint errors were released from the mint and gobbled up by collectors". I just reconfirmed that with Paul McDaniel who happens to have these.

Doc

[Guest Darrell]

Darrell,

I'll save you some of your hair. In the 1990's "Many Kievs and a few Belgrades mint errors were released from the mint and gobbled up by collectors". I just reconfirmed that with Paul McDaniel who happens to have these.

Doc

Thanks Doc.

Released from the mint from period manufacture?

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting, Darrell. But arguments are not evidence, regardless of who makes them, especially when they challange a respected piece of published research (The Red Bible) without presenting counter-evidence. I have done a search for the thread without luck; help . . . ??

[Bryan]

Please read this if you can!

http://awards-su.com/index/md/zaosvbelg/ru/zaosvbelg.htm

http://awards-su.com/index/md/oboronakieva...boronakieva.htm

[Bryan]

Rough translation :

Below represented model with this error on the reverse, it is not possible to consider as collection piece, since they were stamped into 1993, at the Moscow mint by a private individual in a number of copies. Error was produced randomly, without any preliminary design. Nobody was ever rewarded this medal.

Special distinction: not sealed joint ring; the complete absence of oxidation trace.

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Soviet. No, I cannot read that. Do they have any evidence for what they say?

[Bryan]

It seems that you can go to the mint and ask them to make you an order if you pay for it.

I do not know if they have evidence for that. I'm not a very knowledgeable collector. I'm only collecting Soviet medals and orders since 2 years. I just rely myself to what some "experts" are saying and I try to put my own conclusions out of them.

[Riley1965]

True, they were not awarded. But the error occurred at the mint and these incorrect medals were released and were quickly aquired by collectors.

Doc

[rboomsma]

I am sure Mondvor will comment on these medals. It is true they were produced in 1993. But when I last talked to Mondvor on this he was unable to find any evidence either way if they are authentic or deliberitly produced or a true mint error. Paul Mcdaniel feels they real and are in his book.

I disagree they are not collectable, I have managed to get both and find them interesting and very collectable. I doubt many of us have one, or better yet both.

Rough translation :

Below represented model with this error on the reverse, it is not possible to consider as collection piece, since they were stamped into 1993, at the Moscow mint by a private individual in a number of copies. Error was produced randomly, without any preliminary design. Nobody was ever rewarded this medal.

Special distinction: not sealed joint ring; the complete absence of oxidation trace.

Edited October 6, 2006 by rboomsma

[rboomsma]

My Kiev

I am sure Mondvor will comment on these medals. It is true they were produced in 1993. But when I last talked to Mondvor on this he was unable to find any evidence either way if they are authentic or deliberitly produced or a true mint error. Paul Mcdaniel feels they real and are in his book.

I disagree they are not collectable, I have managed to get both and find them interesting and very collectable. I doubt many of us have one, or better yet both.

[Riley1965]

Ron,

I would love to hear Andrey's opinion on this subject. However I stand by my research, my OMSA Medal Note to be and my sources. My sources have been my Mentors. They are experts in this field of study as is Andrey.

Doc

[rboomsma]

Hey, I really hope your right that they are true mint errors. One of the reasons I added them to my collection.

Ron,

I would love to hear Andrey's opinion on this subject. However I stand by my research, my OMSA Medal Note to be and my sources. My sources have been my Mentors. They are experts in this field of study as is Andrey.

Doc

[Riley1965]

Thanks Ron!! The Campaign Medals of the USSR is my first "Book soon to be published by OMSA as a Medal Notes. I also have a basic introduction to the Order of the red Star being published in the upcoming November-December issue of the JOMSA. It took me 9 months of research and writing for the campaign medals and me time to write the JOMSA article. Thjis is a new arena for me. Believe me, if I wasn't sure of my work I wouldn't submit it for all to read.

Doc

[JimZ]

Interesting discussion.

As a collector I find it important to clearly define whether or not these medals were ever issued and bestowed on recipients or whether they were kept in a box in the mint (until some time in the 1990s). My perosnal reason for this would be that whereas I am a keen collector of variations, I will draw the line on a medal (or variation thereof) that has not been awarded. Personally such a medal would not be relevant to my collectation. Of course I would expect many (especially variation collectors) to disagree with me.

Until today I read this thread I had no reasons to doubt that such medals had been issued by the mint but I was also under the impression that they had been awarded. I consider the challenge as to whether or not they were actually awarded very important as it is part of a learning process.

My questions would be as follows:

Are there any documented groups with these mint error medals?

Have the erroneously issued medals been documented by mint in some archives etc.

When is the earliest mention of these medals and what is the source?

In many ways I start to get the same uncanny feeling about as I have about the so called gold variation of the military veterans. Whereas I or others have seen pics of this medal in collections, I have yet to see (or hear someone who has) proper documentary evidence theroef (period photos of awardees with this medal would be a lovely source - Of course...where will we find photo evidence of an awardee wearing these campaign medals back to front???!!!)

Regards,

Jim

[Riley1965]

Jim,

All research by me including a talk with Paul McDaniel reveals that they were not fantasy pieces or released until 1990's. As far as I know and based on my own research they were never awarded but retained at the mint until the 1990's. As for the gold wash on Campaign Medals these are Variation 3 medals awarded as a make-up medal for one not awarded when it was due, etc.

I hope this helps!!

Doc

[rboomsma]

Hello Jim

Can you forward to me that research on the mint error medals?

If so email me at : ronboomsma@shaw.ca

Thanks

Jim,

All research by me including a talk with Paul McDaniel reveals that they were not fantasy pieces or released until 1990's. As far as I know and based on my own research they were never awarded but retained at the mint until the 1990's. As for the gold wash on Campaign Medals these are Variation 3 medals awarded as a make-up medal for one not awarded when it was due, etc.

I hope this helps!!

Doc

[Riley1965]

Ron,

I've attached the bibliography for my manuscript. You will see all of my sources including those I either spoke with or e-mailed.

Doc

Campaign_Medals_Bibliography.txt

[JimZ]

Hello Jim

Can you forward to me that research on the mint error medals?

If so email me at : ronboomsma@shaw.ca

Thanks

Erm Ron...Hi!

... sure you don't mean Doc instead???

Jim

[Riley1965]

I don't see what the problem is!! I've already mentioned that I spoke with Paul McDaniell yesterday and he confirmed my findings that these were NOT fantasy pieces and were in fact GENUINE MINT ERRORS that were "gobbled up by collectors. I'll make some calls to confirm whether any were known to have been awarded.

Doc