Sachsen-Weimar Award Document Scans Needed

[Guest Rick Research]

I am currently working on Saxe-Weimar's World War rolls. Unfortunately, they were ALL kept in simple running chronological order BY YEAR, with no notation of the day and month of actual approval.

Here is a sample from a year change of the Wilhelm Ernst Kriegskreuz:

[attachmentid=56413]

The rolls as they will be printed will show what position in that year the entry was-- 1915 of the WEKK ends with the 35th award for that year, so Hauptmann Retzmann here will show as "1915 35" for bestowal information, and Leutnant dR Lochte as "1916 1."

What I am looking for here are SCANS please of all wartime military award documents you have out there for these grades of Saxe-Weimar's awards 1914-1919:

Order of the White Falcon: Knight 1st Class X, Knight 2nd Class X, Gold Merit Cross X, and Silver Merit Cross X.

The Wilhelm Ernst War Cross

General Decorations: Gold X and Silver X.

I do not have the rolls for the General Decoration in bronze and will NOT be doing any of those anyway based on the huge numbers awarded.

IF I can establish that a particular award that was, say, 88th on the running roll was ACTUALLY awarded on XX.XX.1X, then we can assume that someone who got the 89th award of whatever decoration received it at some close time, and BEFORE a known award that was the 102nd or whatever.

This is a long term project. There is no "rush," since I will be immersed in Weimar through the end of this year.

But if anyone has actual award documents, or specifically dated entries in a Milit?rpa?, Wehrpa?, Kriegstammrolle- or Kriegsrangliste- Auszug, or clear, legible images of these from auction catalogs or so on

please post those IMAGES in here.

Saxe-Weimar's rolls are what they are. Without known days and months, the best that will ever be available will be "by year."

[Willi]

White Falcon Knight 2nd X

[Chip]

Rick,

Just purchased a Saxe-Weimar document for the SWASwX (not sure if that is correct abbreviation). Award date is 17.1.18. Verliehungsurkunde O.5852. Should have the document in about two weeks. Is this the kind of thing that you are looking for? How big a scan would you want? I have most of the pertinent information from it now, should you need any other particulars.

Chip

[cobold]

Falcon Knight 2nd X, document 1916

where is my picture?

Edited October 15, 2006 by cobold

[cobold]

Falcon Knight 2nd X, document 1916

and here is the order.

[cobold]

Falcon Knight 2nd X, document 1916

second

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes Chip!

THANK you Cobold-- Mahr was apparently a Weimar native-- and for THEM, the rolls do not exist after 1915!

[Chip]

Rick,

Don't have the doument yet, but it is dated 17.1.18, to Unteroff.Heinrich Gebauer from Infanterie Ersatz Gruppe "Beverloo".

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

And sure enough there he is entered exactly that way, (Truppe)-- the 112th name on the 1918 list! That certainly suggests "batch" awards-- and is why it will be extremely useful to have KNOWN dates to judge the Roll entries against! Thanks!

[Chip]

Rick,

So the rolls show assigned numbers, but no dates?

I know that Beverloo was a big (closer to the front) training camp for German troops. I even have one of the special shoulder straps that they wore. Do you know if these troops just acted as replacements for units in the field or if they went into the field as a new unit? I'm just trying to understand why someone who apparently has a training job would get this combat award. I suppose there are all sorts of possibilities.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

No, the roll doesn't even number them-- that's ME, to find them on the pages easier. ALL the Weimar rolls are exactly like the sample page section shown up top. I've got to rationalize what are often hundreds of annual awards with no dates whatsoever. Once the lists are sorted alphabetically, the only way to indicate "position" will be those page line numbers, to relate any one award to any other in a year.

Given paperwork delays, where an award reached someone may not have been where it was EARNED. Then again, the General Decorations and the White Falcons had no clear design distinction for wartime bravery versus merit anyway. Even the Wilhelm Ernst Kriegskreuz wennt to some very odd charcters indeed-- but only getting ALL the rolls done will reveal the full extent of their previous rewards from Weimar--if any.

[Deruelle]

Rick,

In the last Kube's auction, two documents have been sold. They belonged to Stabsarzt Dr Sommer from I.R. Nr. 94

First one, he received the SF3b in 10 june 1914. And he received the same medal with X on 10 april 1915. I hope these informations can help you.

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Christophe: are there ILLUSTRATIONS of those two documents, or just stated as that person and those dates in text?

My faith in the accuracy and efficiency of old established German militaria auctioneers in recent years is now... almost nonexistent. There are OTHER Sommers, but no doctor and no 1914 peacetime.

If they are ILLUSTRATED, I will add them in as proven:

because NO entries are made for EITHER of those, as a "native" or as a "Prussian."

!!!!

[Deruelle]

Sorry Rick, in the Kube's auction there are not illustration. Dr Sommer belonged to I.R. Nr. 94. That's all I have for the moment. I will look for old auctions catalogs and maybe I can find something.

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, after a tough and "part time" month, I have only finished the White Falcon Knights 1st Class with Xs.

I would recommend that anyone who can, BUY one NOW before Known Numbers come out. Let's just say that there were FEWER of them than my friend Neal O'Connor listed in his totals, thanks to double listings as native Weimar subjects and outlanders and so on.

Obviously a significant number are missing, with NO roll for Weimar natives for 1916, 1917, 1918, or 1919-- all years present for Prussians. More probably fell through the records cracks for the other German states.

Onward to the Knights 2nd X!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Am 2/3 through the Ritter 2Xs as of today, and DID finally find Dr. Sommer, both times, in the "Prussian" listing.

The Separate And Insane bookeeping is ... freakish. There is a Saxon in the Mecklenburg-Schwerin roll. There are Bavarians in the native Weimar roll. There are natives listed as BOTH natives and Prussians (a number of such duplications, throwing Neal's COUNT off). Saxons-- quite a large number of them-- are sprinkled all over. Naval personnel get entered as "Reich" or Prussian subjects or Weimar natives or.... Ugh.

But allllll will be smoothed out in the final united version.

I've been able to add a first name to Neal's aviation recipients (HEINRICH Plagemann) as well as a Saxon flyer "missed" in the native Weimar list--

Lt G?nther D?rrien (1894-1916).

As always, Rick D's aviation casualties volume is invaluable.

[Guest Rick Research]

Finished the Ritter 2X rolls. Again, there are fewer than Neal counted, though given the absence of late war years in MOST categories, there were probably another 50% more than the surviving rolls for this class.

I would still advise Buy All Weimar White Falcon X 1914-18 medal bars.

Next, am moving to the Merit Crosses X which, strangely enough, seem to be almost if not totally intact. Into 1919.

Wading through the rolls, am able to add (thanks to my collaborators ) additional information to about 1 in 3 entries.

Sure could use more scans of original award documents for specific dates though.

[David Gregory]

Feldwebel Karl Ziegenhardt of Linienkommandantur Luxemburg was awarded the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen in Gold mit Schwertern on 31 May 1918. The trimmed document is numbered 0.1488 on the left of the bottom edge:

[attachmentid=59976]

[Guest Rick Research]

EXCELLENT, David! Although the file number doesn't help, apparently being some random correspondence clue this DOES help--

at some point-- and now I know by when at the latest the Roll Keepers stopped entering the Gold EZ Xs in a continuous roll and started entering them (still without day or month) alphabetically by individual letters.

Thus:

[attachmentid=59988]

(Yes, that is what ALL the Sachsen-Weimar rolls look like-- size and three different scribes' handwriting all fine but NEVER ANY DATES BUT THE YEAR! )

Sooooo, everybody on the mixed pages got theirs BEFORE 31 May in 1918.

The "Final Scribe" was also helpful in HIMSELF noting the sort of thing that I have been doing myself as I complete grades of awards-- see where he notes that OffizierStellvertreter Zimmermann previously held on "Alte Liste Silber S185" ? When I get THERE, I can see if it says that was returned per THIS award. Usually any annotations are cryptic and refer to either a year of death or a deceased person's award being turned back in--sometimes several years later and with NO distinction in the file remarks.

Am not just transcribing, but interpreting and collating disparate data that was never centralized or obvious, and often left information out.

Bigger. Better. Stronger.

OK, maybe NOT bionic.

But every literal little bit helps.

[Chip]

Rick,

Arrived yesterday. With it came with a smaller Verordnung sheet, dated 25, July 1902.

Chip

By the way, what is the optimum way to store these?

Edited November 9, 2006 by Chip

[David Gregory]

By the way, what is the optimum way to store these?

Chip,

The perfect solution - just send it to me and it can live in a solvent-free folder togther with the bronze and gold documents I already have.

Joking aside, if you ever consider parting with this or any other documents, please let me know.

David

[Guest Rick Research]

This afternoon I finished ALL classes of the wartime White Falcons, as found in the rolls. That is: basically ALL "complete" numbers EXCEPT for the Knights 2nd X, which alas are probably only present for about 50 percent.

Anyway, will not quote ACTUAL numbers until The Book comes out but friends BUY any X awards wartime White Falcons you find NOW... before it is too late.

(I have also seen the proofs for the Hohenzollern volume, sent to me by Daniel )

[Chip]

David,

Interest noted. I knew I was setting myself up for a "smart" answer when I asked that question. Looks like an archival folder in a room with humidity control is the best answer.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Annnnnnnnd have just had first success identifying a ribbon bar from the White Falcon and Coburg rolls. Hopefully that will be posted tomorrow.

[Ed_Haynes]

Annnnnnnnd have just had first success identifying a ribbon bar from the White Falcon and Coburg rolls. Hopefully that will be posted tomorrow.