Sachsen-Weimar Award Document Scans Needed

[Guest Rick Research]

I couldn't find it last night, but Christophe had posted it some time back where I wasn't looking.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...ost&p=99090

Note the GOLD Ernestine Xs and SILVER White Falcon Xs. I checked for both the possible combinations-- an Ernestine Ritter 1 X and Falcon Knight 2nd X, OR a Gold Ernestine Merit Cross X and Silver Falcon Merit Cross X. NO match on the latter combination.

Although there were SIX cases where officers had the combination of Orders above and the Carl Eduard Medal with X, TWO were too young (no 1897), ONE was killed two days after the award effective date of his Carl Eduard (and probably never knew he had been awarded it), and TWO had their Ernestine Knights 1st X moved up to Commander grades-- but were also both holders of a pre-war Red Eagle 4th Class.

That leaves ONE possible by process of elimination from more than 300:

Kurt SCHUNKE of Feldartillerie Regiment 19:

Sekonde-Lieutenant 27.1.94 Ww

Oberleutnant 11.9.03 Gg

Hauptmann 27.1.11 C3c

Major 27.1.17 H

charakterisiert Oberstleutnant aD

No awards in 1914 other than the 1897 Centenary Medal. Ended the war as commander of Feldart Rgt 44 BUT died 16 May 1920

Schunke received the Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha Ernestine Ritter 1 X 26.9.14/30.11.14 as "Hauptmann 1. Th?r. Feldart Rgt 19," the 18th Ritter 1 X of the war:

[attachmentid=60448]

the Sachsen-Weimar White Falcon Ritter 2 X in 1916 as 40th non-native Prussian on that year's roll, still Hauptmann Feldart Rgt 19:

[attachmentid=60449]

and

Sachsen-Coburg Carl Eduard Medal 2X #217 on 26.1.18 as Major commanding IInd Battalion/ Field Artillery Regiment 19:

[attachmentid=60450]

aaaaaaand Prussian Hohenzollern House Order 3X gazetted 9.8.18

Now, note that he received the CEM2X 26.1.18 but the date on Christophe's splendid custom made miniature bar is "1.12.16." That is because there were often delays between an action date and when a medal was bestowed. Neal O'Connor shows a document for Hugo Geyer's, awarded on 28 June 1916 for action filled in as on 11 October 1914-- and THAT was the date on HIS medal's bar.

Schunke would not have received his XXV until after the war, in 1919-1920. Since he died in May 1920, that means this bar was worn for a very short time indeed.

And what about that "missing" Hohenzollern?

There being absolutely NOBODY else who could have had this ribbon bar, Schunke must have followed the fashion of wearing his top Prussian award as a buttonhole ribbon:

[attachmentid=60435]

The discrepancy in classes of Orders is because the Ernestines were liberally awarded, with Captains getting Ritter 1 Xs and Majors reeceiving exalted Commander grades. Stingy Saxe-Weimar, on the other hand, handed out Ritter 2 Xs right up through Major, with only rare exceptions. So "over-decorated" by one state and (as a captain) "just right" from the other.

The Carl Eduard Medal X was essential to this identification being possible... but oddly enough it was that "plain old" 1897--invisible in Rank Lists-- that was the KEY.

Congratulations Christophe!

[Deruelle]

Un grand merci mon ami.

Christophe

[Chip]

Rick,

Ran across another Allgemeine Ehrenzeichen in Silber mit Schwertern document on the net. It is part of a grouping of documents. I tried to lift the picture, but the site is protected and would not allow me. The winner's name is Unteroff. Max Machay im Infanterie Rgt. 467. 9. Komp. and the date is 4. Dezember 1917.

If you would like to see it, PM me and I will give you the website info.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks Chip! Machay is on page "220/62" with literally HUNDREDS of awards after his before 1917 turned to 1918. Quite a clump to his Regiment at that time. It is frustrating that the roll keeper just did not LIST the award dates on the lines with each name!

It's unfortunate with so much complete that what is missing seems to be only the White Falcon Knights to native Wemar subjects after 1915! Unlike that Order's freakishly divided record keeping, the General Decorations list Prussians, Bavarians, naval personnel and so on in a logical single continuous roll, so I am 99% sure that the General Decoration rolls will turn out to be complete too. At almost 4,000 Silver Gen Dec Xs for the war, real dates for those are much appreciated!

Got half of the Gold GenDec Xs done.

[Deruelle]

Rick,

In the next Thies catalog, we can find papers from Leutnant Peter Vogt from I.R. Nr. 95.

He received the following medals

EK2, no date

EK1, 31 august 1916

CM2X with date, 22 march 1916

CK, 7 february 1917

SF3bX, 18 june 1917

HHO3X, 23 february 1918

EH3bX, no date

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks Christophe! Coburg dates are confirmed by the rolls I've done. Will add the Weimar SWF3bX data.

Oddly, NOT an Ernestine in the Coburg roll, and since not in Altenburg either, must be a Meiningen one (which also might be missing, since that roll ends in 1916).

If somebody there live would note the Ernestine date, it would be appreciated.

One hopes that these are all being offered as one lot.

And if Herr Thies does not know about Leutnant Vogt's post 1918 career, will be happy to share that with Lucky High Bidder.

[Guest Rick Research]

214 pages into Weimar-- this is actually LARGER than the original, but a section from the roll of the Silver General Decorations with Xs from 1916:

You fans of Sutterlin should notice among the purely personal quirks of penmanship of this geriatric scribe (left-handed "8"s are particularly fun since the ink often skipped) the variant forms of capital "H" and "K" used for last names and first names!!!

Now here is the same section, from # 1111 down, as I am transcribing:

The numbers down the left will not appear in the published form-- those are simply my computer's running totals. Since Sachsen-Weimar chose to enter ALL of their wartime awards in running annual lists with no months or dates, what WILL of necessity appear is the complex Year-Page-Number On Page seen to the right. When any matchs with actual award Urkunden show up, they will thus be able to roughly place adjacent awards for approximate Real Award Times.

And lest it appear "simple," having reached mid-war, I'm coming up on a batch of forgotten or overlooked bestowals from 1914 and 1915 that are "embedded" in 1916 and 1917 pages. FINDING any particular entry on the original roll will thus REQUIRE knowing which PAGE it appears on.

As each award or grade of award is completed, it is crosschecked for OTHER awards, which are noted in the currently blank column right of the page reference. If known, other "interesting" data is also placed there, with birth and death years to far right in the final, ALPHABETIZED version. This is what every page

page after page after page after PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE looks like as I type my fingies to the bone for the Greater Collecting Community.

All this for 3 ?uros a week!!!!

[Chip]

Rick,

If reading S?tterlin was all that was needed, there would be others who could perhaps make some sense of this. But your knowledge of the military terms, abbreviations of those terms and your excellent grasp of the German army in general makes this job maybe something that only you could do. Sometimes, we do this sort of work for our own edification, but it seems you have a higher purpose and for that we and others to come owe you a debt of gratitude. Most excellent, Dude!

Chip

Edited December 16, 2006 by Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Progress Report:

I reached 3,600 AEz2Xs today, 113 pages done, and only 12 left-- about 400 more to do. then it's alphabetize, collate, weed out duplicates, and cross refernces multiple classes of awards.

Interestingly enough, earlier today I passed Chip's 1918 document mentioned above, and sure enough, it was the 112th consecutive award of 1918-- numbered 112 on the award document. IF that held true and each year started over with 1 and ended with the final one of the year, it will thus be possible to extrapolate, perhaps, for those pesky missing White Falcons.

I also found the first entry for a POSTHUMOUS award, well along in 1918 to an naval airship crewmember noted as "?" with his airship number. He was killed in action in June 1917.

So early in the new year WEIMAR ill be off to Daniel for our revisions and proof reading and additions/corrections and THAT will be done. It's been a long slog.

I'll be starting Meiningen then, with the New Year.

[Guest Rick Research]

Sachsen-Weimar WW1 Rolls are DONE

3,887 General Decorations in Silver X now all sorted alphabetically and proofread. 10 are highly dubious (court lackeys and a couple of random civilians entered as "with swords" by mistake, I am sure), 4 possible duplicates that can't be verified due to sloppiness in recording Mere Others Ranks' full names, and 19 entries which defy statutes by being below the rank of Unteroffizier but could be second awards to REALLY junior types.

Final result is SOMEWHERE between 3,854 and 3,887 were actually awarded 1914-18. The roll on that continues into 1919 with civil awards but the last military ones are 1918.

So, with the conspicous exception of White Falcons Knights 2nd Class X to Weimar natives, which simply have never been found (yet)...

that's THREE unpublished states' WW1 awards now ready to GET PRINTED in 2007.

There has been no movement on the PRINTING front, beyond having the Hohenzollern volume all registered and ISBN'd.

A new thread on Sachsen-Meiningen will be started in the New Year.

PS have I mentioned BUY Merit Crosses with Xs of the White Falcon Order?

[Chip]

Rick,

Great news for now and years to come.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Chip-- Here's the page Gebauer is on, for what the original looks like. It's actually larger, so the handwriting isn't so much of a strain. I had to squeeeeeeeze it onto the scanner. (Note the ONLY posthumous award listed, to the naval airship crewman)

[Guest Rick Research]

And closer up. These are so tightly packed on each page, there isn't any space for any extra information the way many of the other rolls do. Rather a disappointment, but what we have is what they left for us!

[Chip]

Rick,

Here is the Verordnungsblatt. Front (cut down to just the text).

[Chip]

and back...

[webr55]

The document for Lt dR Alfred Wagner, just sold on ebay - to anyone from here?

[webr55]

It came with an envelope:

[webr55]

Envelope's back:

[Guest Rick Research]

Good one from the Missing Years of the Missing Class!