Just a 1939-45 Star

[deptfordboy]

Evening Gents,

I recently picked up a humble WW2 star, here it is: but much, much more interesting to me is the story behind it, namely the WW2 experiences of Captain Thorpe-Woods of the Queen's Own. Royal west Kent Regiment (hereafter the RWK's). Here we go, in roughly chronological order:

[Ed_Haynes]

Unnamed? Do you have solid evidence thst it is his, and not Montgomery's?

[deptfordboy]

Unnamed? Do you have solid evidence thst it is his, and not Montgomery's?

Sorry Ed, the point is that the medal isn't the point! I was about to post the interesting stuff, his documents, then the baby woke up and my wife is on a business trip to the States (she's so selfish!).

Ok, here goes: Terence Thorpe-Woods was called up 1st September 1939 as an officer in 'A' Company, 5th Battalion the RWK's, at Bromley drill hall to be precise (this building is probably still standing, I will investigate)...

[Ed_Haynes]

Sorry Ed, the point is that the medal isn't the point! I was about to post the interesting stuff, his documents, then the baby woke up and my wife is on a business trip to the States (she's so selfish!).

Ok, here goes: Terence Thorpe-Woods was called up 1st September 1939 as an officer in 'A' Company, 5th Battalion the RWK's, at Bromley drill hall to be precise (this building is probably still standing, I will investigate)...

Oh, OK, I await, thanks . . . .

[deptfordboy]

Presumably, Thorpe-Woods was in the Territorials pre-war, but I have no confirmation as yet. The trail also goes a bit cold after he visits Bromley:

I know that he was captured in mid 1940, and I also know that the 5th was heavily involved in the retreat to Dunkirk at that time, facing German armour and experiencing numerous casualties and prisoners (from my copy of the regimental history by H.D. Chaplin).

All sounds sexy so far, taken POW in retreat to Dunkirk, but the same regimental history shows no trace of our man. But captured he undoubtedly was, as he spent the rest of the war in German POW camps.

PS - more to come Ed, hang on!

Edited October 25, 2006 by deptfordboy

[deptfordboy]

Our man was interned for at least part of the war in Oflag VIIB, near Eichstatt, which I believe is in Southern Germany, and a quick google search revealed the following picture of him: http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/frames.htm

[Ed_Haynes]

Intreresting. Sorry, I don't have the POW rolls for natives (of the British Isles).

Edited October 19, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[deptfordboy]

It's possible that Thorpe-Woods spent the early part of the war elsewhere, as his letters from Oflag VIIB which I have only start in 1942.

There are too many of these to post here, and they are obviously censored (you can see the thick pencil scrubbing out various sentences), but here's a summary of the 'highlights':

His first letter home is in October 1942. He mentions that his ankle is still weak, which got me all excited about war wounds, until he revelas in a later letter that he bust it playing soccer!

In his letter of November 1943 he says that, after a year, handcuffing has ceased. Handcuffing is something that is also referred to in the Red Cross report on the (excellent) site I just posted a link to - apparently this was in 'retaliation' for Canadians handcuffing German POW's on their way back to the UK.

In his letter of February 1944, he gives a few insights into camp life: apparently, he is the cook at camp, it has been very cold and they have been grateful to be allowed cinema visits into the nearby town and to collect pine cones for their stoves , and he has busted his ankle again skating on their home-made ice rink! He says that the cinema in particular is a great way to forget the last 3 and a half years of captivity, tieing in with the Dunkirk theory.

Edited November 13, 2006 by deptfordboy

[deptfordboy]

There are quite a few candid snaps of captives and captors, most of them inscribed to the reverse. Here are a few:

the first, a 'caravan' of guards taking a pause in snowy woodland

the second, German guards undergoing training in skiiing by being dragged behind horses (reminds me of a budget trip I did to Andorra a few winters ago)

the third, a snap of what he calls the camp 'Quartemasters de Luxe'

[deptfordboy]

What is probably quite rare, and shows the diiferences in the way the Germans treated 'gentleman' English officers and, say, Russian enlisted men is this camp magazine, which the prisoners were allowed to produce and was then sent off for printing by a local firm. T

hey produced at least 15 of these - I have certainly never seen anything of its type before. Here's the back page with crossword for those who enjoy a puzzle:

[deptfordboy]

In addition to such diversions, Thorpe-Woods was also allowed to study for accountancy exams whilst in the camp, and understandably a lot of the content of his letters and the camp mag concerns the future after the war. There is a palpable sense of disappointment in the prisoners' realisation in 1944 that the war will not be over by Xmas which ties in nicely with 'greater' events (Arnhem etc).

Edited October 20, 2006 by deptfordboy

[deptfordboy]

Eventually however, our man is released and seems to have rather a nice time in Hamburg - he seems much joliier in this posed picture, and there are numerous 'reportage' shots of him and chums relaxing with pretty German girls and tasty German lagers:

Edited October 19, 2006 by deptfordboy

[deptfordboy]

Finally, our man is released from service and bumped up a rank for his trouble - I understand this was quite a common practice - does anyone else have a similar document?

Anyway, no heroics whatsoever but probaby the most interesting group I have owned in a while - thanks for looking.

Cheers

Gilbert

[Laurence Strong]

Finally, our man is released from service and bumped up a rank for his trouble - I understand this was quite a common practice - does anyone else have a similar document?

Anyway, no heroics whatsoever but probaby the most interesting group I have owned in a while - thanks for looking.

Cheers

Gilbert

From the Admirality but not for a POW

[Mossy]

Gilbert,

Great set! Certainly makes you appreciate what one medal can mean when researched and the associated bits and pieces are added. And i wouldn't be too sure about the 'no heroics' bit, after all, several years in a prison camp, surrounded by the enemy with your own bombs coming close to hitting you during the last years.

Just curious, is the medal named to Mr. Thorpe-Woods, or is it a representitive piece?

Sam.

[Kev in Deva]

In addition to such diversions, Thorpe-Woods was also allowed to study for accountancy exams whilst in the camp, and understandably a lot of the content of his letters and the camp mag concerns the future after the war. There is a palpable sense of disappointment in the prisoners' realisation in 1994 that the war will not be over by Xmas which ties in nicely with 'greater' events (Arnhem etc).

Hallo Gilbert

I think I would be peed off at the prospect of the war not ending for another 50 years

Kevin in Deva

[deptfordboy]

Hallo Gilbert

I think I would be peed off at the prospect of the war not ending for another 50 years

Kevin in Deva

Hi Kevin, good to hear from you.

Doh! Thanks for spotting that, it was rather late when I posted (that's my excuse anyway)

[deptfordboy]

Hi Sam,

No the medal isn't named it's standard issue - the seller insisted it was his but of course you never can tell.

My next task is to find out when and where he was captured. I'm not aware of any publicly accessible POW lists for the second world war, is that an option? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure he would have been listed as captured in the Queen's Own Gazette, so when I get a chance I'll drive down the road to Maidstone and do some delving there.

Cheers,

Gilbert

[Ed_Haynes]

Hi Sam,

No the medal isn't named it's standard issue - the seller insisted it was his but of course you never can tell.

My next task is to find out when and where he was captured. I'm not aware of any publicly accessible POW lists for the second world war, is that an option? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure he would have been listed as captured in the Queen's Own Gazette, so when I get a chance I'll drive down the road to Maidstone and do some delving there.

Cheers,

Gilbert

The latest of the WWII POW lists has been reprinted in several volumes. Others are available (I have used them in the NAM, though I am sure copies exist elsewhere).

[deptfordboy]

Thanks Ed, I'm not sure I quite understand you however. Are you saying that the British POW lists are available at Kew, or can be purchased? I did a few google searches and couldn't find any references. It would be great to find out where and when he was captured.

Cheers

Gilbert

[Ed_Haynes]

The 30 March 1945 POW list for Europe (only) has been reprinted in three volumes as Prisoners of War vol 1 British Army (ISBN 0-903754-61-4), vol. 2 Naval and Air Forces (ISBN 0-903754-62-2), and vol. 3 Armies and other Land Forces of the British Empire (ISBN 0-903754-63-0, the only one I have as it includes the Indian Army). These were reprinted in 1990 by J. B. Hayward and are now fairly hard to find. I got mine through Chris Dixon, but I know their stocks were low at the time. You might be able to turn up copies through http://www.abebooks.com/ I looked and found at least one copy of vol. 1 (at $125).

In some ways, the March 1945 list may not be the most useful, as many POWs (in Italy, for example) were let loose by then. Earlier lists are in the various archives. I have used a 1943 and 1944 list (I think) at the National Army Museum's library.

About all this list will give is the camp in which he was interned and the POW number (which, I'd wager, relates to some other records, whether German, Italian, or British).

I'd be surprised if much could be found online. As I tell my students (constantly) "research" is to "Google" as apples are to stones.

[deptfordboy]

Thanks Ed, all crystal clear now. I will keep an eye out and see if 'Santa' can get me one for Xmas. I also still fancy my plan of thumbing through the relevant copies of the Queen's Own Gazette at the regimental museum in Maidstone - I'll post any findings here.

Cheers

Gilbert

[Guest Rick Research]

Eichst?tt is in Bavaria. There was a POW camp there in the FIRST war as well.

Although the only unit I know about stationed there in 1939 was the 1st Replacement Battalion of Infantry Regiment 63, the amateur skiers you've show definitely appear to be wearing the short-billed caps of mountain troops.

I turn up no versions of titled Thorpe-Woodses. But you may turn him up in an old edition of Burke's landed gentry or that ilk.

[Guest WAR LORD]

Eichst?tt is in Bavaria. There was a POW camp there in the FIRST war as well.

Although the only unit I know about stationed there in 1939 was the 1st Replacement Battalion of Infantry Regiment 63, the amateur skiers you've show definitely appear to be wearing the short-billed caps of mountain troops.

I turn up no versions of titled Thorpe-Woodses. But you may turn him up in an old edition of Burke's landed gentry or that ilk.

It was the home of the Jagerkaserne Eichstatt from 1893 to 1933 and afterwards. This I believe from the pics is also part of the POW Camp.

[peter monahan]

[Gilbert

Just picking up on an earlier point - re-read this thread carefully this time. The Canadians took a few (very few) prisoners during the ill fated Dieppe raid and handcuffed them for the trip back to England - "to prevent them destroying items of intelligence value" was the stated reason. This made the papers in England and the Germans responded by shackling POWs in germany for a number of months. Or maybe you knew this already.

Peter