An elegant uniform in Liverpool

[Eduardo]

Wonderfull photograph Stuart. Thanks for posting it. It is so vivid. Yes I can see the two photos I have had been in the center of discusion for several days. I think they should not stay in the box with the out of collection material and that is why I would not mind of sending them to a person who would house them properly. If I can get postcards for my collection the better but even if not I guess things should be in the place where they are taken care of.

Is it possible to see the photos of your publisher friend? It has to be a fantastic collection.

Eduardo

PS. No way to get that magazine here.

Edited October 28, 2006 by Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

Eduardo,

it's hard enough to buy books from them - no website, no email address and they won't give out their 'phone number. I have to go through a friend in the UK, he writes a letter then a cheque and I EFT the funds to him. When I get my latest shipment I will write to them and enquire about the photo collection.

FYI:

D P & G Military Publishing,PO Box 186, Doncaster, S.Yorks, UK DN4 OHN.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart,

When you describe badges from dress regulations and embroided badges you're talking about badges worn by officers, the sergeant major and bandmaster, all other ranks wore badges in metal i.e. brass, whitemetal or bi-metal depending on the unit.

Regarding badges to the Northumberlands I have "The Fifth Fusiliers & it's Badges" by Denis Wood, probably one of the best books ever put together on a regiment and it's regimental badges as worn by officers and other ranks. To-date no other regiment has been so well represented in this type of publication.

As for uniform books two of my main sources are the Fostens "The Thin Red Line", Michael Barthorp's "British Infantry Uniforms since 1660". Alright they may be modern publications but they are well illustrated giving a feel for the period, as well as being well researched as both authors had the advantage of looking at records that weren't previously available to previous uniform researchers. Barthrops in particular uses contemporary photos and then has them coloured for effect. I also have loads of other books which cover uniforms, loads of stuff from Military Modeller regarding dress, a run of the Navy & Army Illustrated and more than a 1,000 photo's of the Northumberlands.

I've been involved in the hobby now since I was twelve and after forty years in it, still love researching the British Army, although concentrating on the Northumberlands.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=58578]

Stuart,

On the left is the 5th Foot O/R's nine flame plain grenade(1840-55) as mentioned and on the right the officers embroided genade with '5' below. The O/R's brass grenade was later mounted with a whitemetal St.George & Dragon, with a brass '5' numeral below(1855-57). This was replaced with a die-stamped grenade in 1857.

Now having re-read Wood's book it would appear the the numeral '5' was kept with this later badge and only the pattern changed. I'm sure I have an illustration somewhere which I'll post.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=58584]

Stuart,

Sorry it's a poor illustration but here is Pte Patrick McHale, V.C., which he won during the Indian Mutiny 1857, clearly showing a new pattern badge with figure '5' below. This photo was probably taken in the U.K. after the investiture of the V.C. by H.M.Queen Victoria. I also believe also such V.C. winners were photographed and are kept in albums in the Royal Archives.

Graham.

[peter monahan]

Did you notice that Pte McHale is wearing his VC in the "wrong" spot: second instead of first. Tsk tsk! Anyone want to tell him?

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Graham,

thanks for the information, I appear to be of your vintage and still learning. I was cogitating over a cognac late last night and realised that I had forgotten that the Dress Regs only covered officers but didn't know what the ORs badges were. My area has always been officers' headdress but I do have some ORs cavalry helmets.

I use Barthorp's books (infantry and cavalry) as a primary source as well as Carman, Barnes and Stachan and less so Lawson. I also have the Thin Red Line but for some reason never refer to it, possibly because of it's height it isn't grouped with the bulk of my reference books. I have many, many other books on Yeomanry, helmets, medals &c but only 2 on badges. I also have 22 Army Lists and Dress Regs 1846, 1857, 1874, 1891, 1900, 1913 with 4 more on order.

These days I seem to be spending more on reference material than on headdress. The Army Lists were vital in tracking down Sir C.L.D. Venables-Llewelyn of Peter Suciu fame.

But where does this leave us with Eduardo's man? His cap does not appear to be deep enough to accommodate the numeral 5.

Stuart

[Eduardo]

Hello Stuart,

I am a historian and for a long time, and several books, my speciality was Early coinage of Peru and South America. I am enjoying this forum very much and am glad the pictures of "my" two soldiers have arroused so much exchange of info. I understand your craze for the reference books. When you become more interested in the documentation than in the objects themselves, you have become part of the subject. Congratulations. You say: "where does this leave us with Eduardo's man?" I think he has completed his task. He has been the motor of discussion.

Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Eduardo,

you might be right that he has served his purpose but I suspect Graham might not yet be finished.

When I first saw your posting I thought no it's not my area but on a subsequent re-visit I thought why not? and got caught up in the chase. It has been a very rewarding experience and I have learned a good deal (thanks Graham).

Well done for posting the photo.

Stuart

[Eduardo]

Good if Graham and hopefully others are not finish. That way we will live the joy of more inteligent questions, opinions, and discusions. What hapened to the "5"?

Eduardo

[Graham Stewart]

Eduardo,

Thanks for posting the photo and I'm sorry we were unable to pin down the exact unit to whom this gentleman belonged. I think Stuart would agree that this period of time is difficult when trying to identify units as the detailing of uniforms and head-dress by historians or units themselves was patchy to say the least. This is especially so, when dealing with unit's outside of our regular army i.e. the Militia or Volunteers and I would say that possibly more research has been done in the last twenty years on the subject than ever before.

Stuart,

You must have one hell of a collection and must be well worth seeing. I'm spending more time researching now than ever and have an abundance of books on military subjects. Lately I've been buying copies of Kings Regulations, Militia Regulations and Regulations for the Volunteer Force mainly because one of my favourite subjects is regimental numbering. These latter volumes also have a good deal on dress and if you would like details for your archive PM me an e.mail address and I'll forward them on.

Graham.

P.S.

You must be an extremely posh Oz to be diving into the Congac, always thought a Fosters or several would have been more up your street

Edited October 28, 2006 by Graham Stewart

[Stuart Bates]

Hello Graham,

I have looked on the net for Kings Regulations, Militia Regulations and Regulations for the Volunteer Force and have only found the KRRs for 1837. I do have Bennett Cuthbertson's book on order.

This is definitely off-topic but I wouldn't touch mainstream Aussie beer, my favourite beer is Fuller's London Pride, but my weakness is for cognac.

Will PM.

Stuart

[Eduardo]

O.K. Here is a new scan of the granade. I have made it as high resolution as possible in my scanner. Not much better that the previous.

Eduardo

[Graham Stewart]

Eduardo & Stuart,

This latest enlargement has me convinced we're looking at an artillery unit, plus the fact he's wearing a cross belt with his shelljacket, which I think would be unheard of or a rarity in infantry units. The pattern of badge is very similar to that worn by the Grenadier Guards, but they're found in whitemetal and I have one in my own badge collection. These have been credited to being worn by units of the Volunteer Artillery and although no band around the forage cap is visible, the Corps to whom this gentleman belongs, may have had a slight variation in uniform before conforming to Artillery Dress Regulations, or is invisible due to sepia photography being colour blind i.e. yellow will come out as almost black.

What are your thoughts Stuart?

Graham.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Graham Stewart

[Eduardo]

Graham and Stuart,

Would you like me to make an enlargement in high resolution of the belt and upper part of the chest?

Eduardo

Edited October 29, 2006 by Eduardo

[Graham Stewart]

Eduardo,

Yes please and if so try the waist belt too, as there was usually some form of insignia on them, although I'm surprised at the shape of it, which doesn't normally conform with British waist belt clasps. Forgot to mention there were a number of Volunteer Artillery Corps based around Liverpool at the time this photo was taken.

Graham.

[Eduardo]

OK Graham, Here they go. I really find them blury but you, stuart and other members of the forum will decide.

Eduardo

[Graham Stewart]

Thanks Eduardo, alas though nothing there to help out further. If it is a Volunteer Artillery member then he's from one of nine Volunteer Artillery Corps raised in Liverpool. They were;-

1st Lancashire Volunteer Artillery Corps formed Liverpool 16/11/1859.

4th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 5/12/1859. Formed from clerks & office personnel of Liverpool firms. H.Q. - Liverpool & London Insurance Company

6th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 20/12/1859. Disbanded 1863

7th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 21/12/1859. Absorbed by 1st Lancs V.A.C. March 1860. Reformed June 1860. H.Q. - Windsor Iron Works. Disbanded 1869.

8th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 9/1/1860. Absorbed by 1st Lancs V.A.C. March 1860. Reformed June 1860. H.Q. - Mersey Steel & Iron Company, Liverpool from 1869 and Toxteth Park 1870.

11th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 19/2/1860. Disbanded 1867

12th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 19/2/1860. H.Q. - Edge Hill, Liverpool.

14th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 28/2/1860. Became a battery of 1st Lancs V.A.C. July 1861.

Graham.

P.S.

Thanks for the PM

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

look at Barthorp p83 but especially the Rifle Brigade photograph on p89 where the men are wearing a combination of shell jackets and tunics but all with a cross belt.

I am colour blind (like sepia) but the cuffs on the original photo show up as a lighter shade and I would have expected yellow or white to have done so. It did for the Good Conduct chevron.

Stuart

Edited October 29, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=58857]

Stuart,

Sepia photography is unreliable as far as colouring goes. There's a famous series of pictures of the Lancashire Fusiliers taken on the Somme 1916 and on their steel helmets they've painted a yellow plume, but viewed in sepia they turn out dark and not light.

The pouch belt in infantry regiments is perculiar to Rifle Regiments(Rifle Bde/Kings Royal Rifles) and is not a common feature of heavy infantry. You see is used extensively by Volunteer Rifle Corps post 1859/60. Photo attached is of a Sgt, 1st Vol Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers wearing a pouch belt, complete with blackened brass whistle & chain. The belt itself is of brown leather and not black. V.R.C.'s adopting a dark green Rifles pattern uniform would have worn black pouch belts.

Due to the pattern of badge and darkness of the tunic in Eduardos photo I'm drawn towards an early Volunteer Artillery Corps, but not regular infantry, Rifle Regt's or a Rifle Volunteer Corps.

Graham.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Graham Stewart

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart,

Check this link out regarding early photo's British units;-

http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/

Graham.

[Eduardo]

Graham,

What a wonderfull link. I am going to mark it in my favourites.

Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

wasn't sepia introduced in the early 1880s which takes it out of contention for the purposes of this discussion.

I can't reconcile your statements about the colours with the fact that we can easily distinguish the cuffs and chevron as being a different colour to the jacket and the stripe to the trousers.

As we know Volunteer Artillery had silver lace/silver for officers and white cloth/white metal for ORs according to Litchfield. However, p88 has a photograph of the Gloucestershire A.V. circa 1860 wearing a cap without any badge and with an indeterminate band colour, even though the author states that exceptions to the silver &c rule would be noted. P150 and 152 show the Shropshire and Staffordshire with a mixture of silver/white and an indeterminate colour.

Stuart

BTW: The Soldiers of the Queen is a terrific site

Edited October 30, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Peter_Suciu]

Check this link out regarding early photo's British units;-

http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/

Excellent Web site Graham. I could spend hours looking at these photos! Fantastic!

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart,

Certainly can't argue over the finer points of photographic processing, as I no expert. However it's always been difficult to define the colour yellow in this particlar type of photo. As an example go to the link just given and the "On Leave - with friends and family", and the first beautiful CDV of the twin brother & sister. As you can no doubt see he's a gunner, but look at the yellow band on his forage cap, it's undistinguishable as yellow and is often mistaken as red.

Like the photo of the 1st V.B., N.F. sgt posted earlier the piping, embroided title & collar facing are red, the backing to his stripes are red, the stripes in silver and the piping around the bottom of his collar yellow, whistle and chain and buttons black, uniform rifle grey.

The problem is we really don't know enough about the uniform of Volunteer Artillery Corps in 1859/60, as time progresses they would gradually fall in line with regulars and militia. As far as I'm aware there are no set dress regulation for units of the Volunteer Force 1859/60, as each unit set their own.

Graham.