An elegant uniform in Liverpool

[Stuart Bates]

Well, Graham, I think that we have exhausted this topic, or at least it has exhausted me. From here on it's round in circles, so unless someone has an exceptional find I will bow out, but it has been an extremely interesting experience.

Thanks to all who contributed.

Stuart

[Djedj]

(...). However it's always been difficult to define the colour yellow in this particlar type of photo. As an example go to the link just given and the "On Leave - with friends and family", and the first beautiful CDV of the twin brother & sister. As you can no doubt see he's a gunner, but look at the yellow band on his forage cap, it's undistinguishable as yellow and is often mistaken as red.

Hi Graham,

It's definitely a thing with Yellow :

Photographers first used Orthochromatic processes, only sensitive to cold colors like blue and cyan, so warm colors like orange and yellow appear quite dark in the B/W image.

Here's an interesting example : look at the medals of this (French) Naval Officer :

Now a closer look at his China Medal, on the right, is interesting : the 1861 French China Medal's ribbon was some bright YELLOW, with the name of the city of Pekin (ok, Beijing...) written in BLUE :

You'll see how the photographic process is very sensitive to blue (quite light coloured) and not to yellow.

It seems that the way the material of the ribbons reflected light makes this distortion more pronouced with medals.

Anyway it gets some time, but you get used to it :

For instance the British Campaign Medal is a Crimea (wide very light central band = blue) and cannot be a Baltic (the yellow central band would turn out quite dark).

Cheers,

Jerome

Edited October 30, 2006 by Djedj

[Graham Stewart]

Jerome,

Many thanks for your input regarding colour with this type of photograph and the French China Medal is a superb example of how two easily distinguishable colours are reversed in this photographic process. As you say it does take time to get used to it and I can remember in my early days of collecting being totally confused by it, especially with WWI photo's which showed cloth battle patches and you knew they were either yellow or light blue and were different shades in photo's.

Stuart,

Many thanks for your input into this post and I think you're right about the post being exhausted and until someone comes along with a similar photo from Liverpool, which is definately identified, we will be going around in circles.

Thanks to all for their input and especially to Eduardo for letting us see this most unusual photo.

Graham.

[Dave Alexander]

During my many years as a Civil Engineer we would produce blue prints for use by construction crews in the field. If we wished to emphasise any particular part of the drawing or instructions we would underline or draw a box round them in YELLOW. When the blue print was run, yellow would stand out as the darkest lines, it would jump out at you. Something to do with the UV light used. This was a principle established long before my time.

[Stuart Bates]

As an example go to the link just given and the "On Leave - with friends and family", and the first beautiful CDV of the twin brother & sister. As you can no doubt see he's a gunner, but look at the yellow band on his forage cap, it's undistinguishable as yellow and is often mistaken as red.

Graham,

p93 of the Thin Red Line shows 3 1854 Artillery forage caps: an officer's; an NCO's and an OR's but the OR's has a red band! P68 1812-1815 also shows an Artillery OR's forage cap with a red band. I just throw that in to further muddy the waters.

I notice the spiral nature of the swagger stick in Eduardo's photo and its similarity to the one in the photo quoted above. Any significance in this?

Stuart

Edited October 30, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Further to my earlier posting about chevrons as part of the cuff design 1868-1871: the Good Conduct chevrons were worn above the chevron that formed part of each cuff.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

G.C. Badges for regulars changed cuff from right to left c.1881, and the Militia still wore theirs on the right certainly up until 1881, but not sure after this date. While the Volunteer's continued to wear theirs on the right, but in the shape of stars

I was wondering when the Good Conduct chevrons changed from the right cuff to the left cuff. Thanks, Graham, for supplying the answer.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=59072]

Stuart,

Correct on all accounts, so have attached this from an G.D.Giles print drawn 1889 of members of the Royal Artillery, clearly showing a yellow band on the forage caps of the other ranks.

On top of which an extract from "Regulations for the Vounteer Force 1881"

Section XX - Clothing, Accoutrements & Horse Furniture

Para 684 - "In order that the several arms of the Volunteer Force may be distinguished from corresponding arms of the Regular Forces and Militia the following rules will be observed";-

(a)"Artillery Volunteers will wear scarlet, and Engineer Volunteers blue cord on their tunics and braid on their frocks. Artillery Volunteers will aslo wear scarlet, and Engineers Volunteers a blue band and button on their forage caps."

This is where it gets confusing, because 1880's contemporary print's clearly show the Regulars wearing 'yellow' bands on their forage caps, whereas the Volunteer Artillery were to wear scarlet. On top of which the Militia Artillery seem to have adpoted something else, as per this extract. The colour for the cap is repeated in 1901 Volunteer Reg's.

"Militia Regulations 1880"

Part 3 - Clothing & Necessaries

Para 871 - "The men of the Royal Artillery** will wear the uniform of the pattern worn by the Garrison Brigades, and will take clothing from the Brigades as follows etc."

**This is actually referring to men of the Royal Artillery who have been transferred to the permanent Militia Staff or who on discharge have opted to serve in the Militia Artillery. The fact is they are asked to wear the uniform of a pattern worn by the "Garrison Brigades", because there were three branches of the Artillery at this time - the Royal Horse Artillery, Royal Field Artillery and Royal Garrison Artillery. So did the forage caps of the R.G.A. differ from the R.F.A. at this time???

It's a question I've been trying to answer for sometime, with no clear answer. So if the Regular Artillery decided to adopt a yellow band on the forage cap as seen in the print when did they do it, or did each branch of the artillery have a different coloured band? Having said that it's quite clear that the Volunteer's are distinguishing themselves apart from the regulars with a 'scarlet' band.

So I still think it could be an early Volunteer Artillery corps.

Graham.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Graham Stewart

[Djedj]

Bonsoir Graham,

To my knowledge, the yellow band on the pillbox hat was adopted from the beginning by all branches of the RA (RHA and RA).

As for the uniforms of RGA and RFA, they were basically the same, and differences were minor, as explained on this EXCELLENT website :

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army...rtillery/ra.htm

Cheers !

Jerome

(still kickin', are they, those dead threads ? )

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=59075]

Thanks to the kindness of Jerome and his link I've been able to add this better quality Simkin print which definately shows a yellow forage cap band being worn by a regular Royal Artilleryman.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

your Giles print is on the same site and is specified as being Royal Garrison Artillery with the OR's band being, of course, yellow as for the Royal Field Artillery?

Stuart

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army.../rgaofficer.htm

[Stuart Bates]

The uniform of Garrison Artillery was the same as Field Artillery except that they were more likely to wear trousers instead of boots and breeches. On their shoulder straps were the initials of the name of their Division and the number of their company.

This quote was taken from Jerome's site

Stuart

Edited November 1, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart,

So there you have it. At some time prior to 1880 the regular branches of the Royal Artillery changed both the colour of the band and button on the forage cap to 'yellow'. The Militia adopted dress for other ranks in line with that of the regular R.G.A., and also wore a 'yellow' band and button on their forage caps. The Volunteer Artillery to distinguish themselves from both the Regulars & Militia adopted 'scarlet' on the band and button of the forage cap.

I don't think there is anymore really to add about the photo. Certainly I'm still of the opinion it's an early Volunteer Artillery Corps photo, not Regular artillery, not infantry, not a Rifle regiment and not a Volunteer Rifle Corps. Problem being there's so little information on the dress of all these individual Volunteer Corps raised in 1859/60 onwards and I think I would be correct in saying not one Corps in this movement dressed the same until 1880 when dress among them was tightened up.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

I know I have said this before but I think we have gone as far as we can, and yes Graham, I am also of the opinion that the photograph shows a member of a Volunteer Artillery unit as there is simply no room for a numeral below the grenade and because of the variability of the headdress of Volunteer Artillery - some with silver/white bands, some with scarlet bands each with and without grenade badges (Litchfield and Westlake).

It has been a pleasure to take part in this discussion.

Over and out.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart,

I second that. Chuck uz a tinny and throw a wallaby on the barbie.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

you speak so well. Has your vocabulary improved since the beginning of this forum? Too many Aussie TV soaps?

Stuart

Edited November 1, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Djedj]

Bonjour,

For those of you with a specific interests in Military CDVs etc, I'd like to announce the recent creation of a Newsgroup dedicated to the very subject.

It was opened by Michael Hargreave Mawson...yesterday (so I mean "recent")

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MilitaryPortraits/

Here's the little intro :

"Collecting Military Portraits

Welcome to the Collecting Military Portraits group! Open to collectors of military portraits of all types and periods up to the outbreak of the First World War, the group has been created to facilitate the exchange of information about portraits of military men in photographs, lithographs, oils, watercolours, pastels, pen-and-ink, pencil and other media.

If you are seeking information about a portrait, about an artist or photographer, about a particular military sitter, about a uniform or uniform detail, or about anything else connected with military portraiture, this is the group for you. Also welcome, of course, are collectors who have information to impart!

It goes without saying that members are actively encouraged to upload digital copies of images in their collections to the Photos section of the group website. "

The theme will mostly revolve around British and Indian Army subjects, but with no exclusive.

Cheers,

Jerome

[Stuart Bates]

I have just got hold of a British Uniform Pattern Book published in 1886 by Wm Jones & CompY , Contractors to H.M. Government &c. It has a couple of interesting things to say -

Artillery Militia - The uniform is in every way the same as that for Foot Artillery, except the letter M will be worn on the shoulder cords and straps below the badges, the word "Ubique" will be omitted from the ornaments, and the name of the Division to which they belong will be in the scrolls, on helmets, pouches, &c., in place of Quo fas &c. (Foot Artillery had gold/yellow).

Artillery Volunteers - are clothed exactly the same as Royal Artillery, substituting silver lace, cord, &c., for gold, with gold collar grenades.

I guess this doesn't add much but thought I'd flog the dead horse.

Stuart

[tynesideirish]

After looking through all my books the best I can come up with is HAC ... But Liverpool?

[leigh kitchen]

Does'nt look like the glengary badge of the regular 5th Fusiliers, it's too small & the flame pattern looks wrong to me, tho' the regualr 23rd had a version of their glengary badge in a s,maller size than the norm.

Could it be a "Grenadier Guards shaped" fusee grenade badge with or without adornment on the ball as was worn by some Militia & Volunteer units in white metal, eg Royal Tyrone Fusiliers & some artillery?

Looks like a vounteer rather than a regular.

[Graham Stewart]

Certainly not infantry, but either Militia or more likely Volunteer Artillery both of whom wore a 'Guards' pattern grenade badge with the pill box cap in whitemetal.

The infantry tended to wear a dark blue 'Kilmarnock' forage cap, which was gradually replaced in 1868 by the dark blue glengarry cap. The badges of infantry units for wear on the Kilmarnock consisted of either just regimental numerals or devices and numerals as shown in the photo I posted of Patrick McHale.

For decent reading of Artillery uniforms and badges read Norman Litchfields;-

"The Militia Artillery 1852-1909."

"The Volunteer Artillery 1859-1908."

TynesideIrish,

HAC are posh cockneys, whereas nearly every county in the country raised it's own Volunteer Artillery post 1860. The Volunteers we now know as the Territorials. The Militia was not a wide spread in Artillery, but "The Royal Lancashire Militia Artillery", which comprised of six batteries had it's H.Q. based in Liverpool from 1853 -1859. The Militia Artillery eventually became the Special Reserve in 1908.

Graham.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Graham Stewart

[leigh kitchen]

Yep, the obvious staring point for this man is a Liverpool Volunteer Artillery unit.