Heer collar tab

[Cameron]

[attachmentid=60742]Can anyone identify this collar tab for me please? In fact any information about the picture in general would be helpful, judging by the tab and tunic, it must be a foreign volunteer, but if that's the case surely the runes wouldn't be on the helmet.

Thanks for any help.

[Paul R]

Just a guess...

It looks to me to be a Spanish Emblem

[Cameron]

Just a guess...

It looks to me to be a Spanish Emblem

Thanks for the reply, that was my first thought as well however the Falangist emblem was slightly different with 5 arrows and no sunwheel.

Having said that, would this mean it was an official SS tab? What I mean is, is this what they would allow Spaniards to wear who were employed by the wehrmacht?

(So were the Blue Division attached in any way to any Deutsch service?, or were they their own entity?)

And Spanish volunteers in heer uniform and SS? I'm getting confused now.

Oh dear, isn't this collecting lark a bit much at times?

[Riley1965]

From what I can see, we have a closed sonnenrad over three crossed arrows. I can't seem to find it at this moment. I''ll keep looking!!!

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

Not that this might help, but that is an ITALIAN tunic.

[Cameron]

Thanks for the replies chaps, I did notice the pocket flaps myself and wondered if they were Italian but I thought it was only tropical uniforms that were made out of surplus desert stock, this one looks woollen, but if that's what happened in the 40's well so be it. Can't see it being impossible mind you.

Really would like to place that collar tab though, still a bit confused with the runes on the helmet.

[Paul R]

Thanks for the replies chaps, I did notice the pocket flaps myself and wondered if they were Italian but I thought it was only tropical uniforms that were made out of surplus desert stock, this one looks woollen, but if that's what happened in the 40's well so be it. Can't see it being impossible mind you.

Really would like to place that collar tab though, still a bit confused with the runes on the helmet.

I have never seen this one before. I thought that the italians had a different tab.

[woody]

the emblem is actually 3 arrows, a circle, and a bridge like item that the arrows pass through in the centre, there is this type of tab illustrated in vol. 2 foreign legions of the third reich, page 244, although the emblem is placed in a different position. It is in the italian section, was if official or unofficial ???????????

cheers

Gary

[Cameron]

the emblem is actually 3 arrows, a circle, and a bridge like item that the arrows pass through in the centre, there is this type of tab illustrated in vol. 2 foreign legions of the third reich, page 244, although the emblem is placed in a different position. It is in the italian section, was if official or unofficial ???????????

cheers

Gary

Now were getting somewhere, any chance of a scan at all? I would think it was unofficial because the other Italian tab was the fasces.

Thanks to all for the help, it's appreciated.

[David Gregory]

the emblem is actually 3 arrows, a circle, and a bridge like item that the arrows pass through in the centre, there is this type of tab illustrated in vol. 2 foreign legions of the third reich, page 244, although the emblem is placed in a different position. It is in the italian section, was if official or unofficial ???????????

cheers

Gary

I think Hugh Page Taylor is working on a book covering the Italian SS and I recall seeing this image (or one very much like it) in a post to that effect somewhere in the past (probably at www.feldgrau.com or one of its previous incarnations).

If Hugh Page Taylor is a member of this forum or reading it, he might respond.

David

[Glenn J]

This officer is named at AHF as Obersturmf?hrer Count Pio Filippani-Ronconi sometime of the II./Waffen-Grenadier Battalion 81.

Regards

Glenn

[Johnny]

Hi Guys,

A quick flick through Men At Arms 420 by Gordon Williamson would appear to reveal all!

That collar patch features on page 19 relating to the 29 Waffen Grenadier Division Der SS (Italienische Nr.1)

The usual collar patch worn by the division was the Fasces (Axe in a bundle of sticks) however the author states that the patch shown in the picture was used by either or both the Debica and Vendetta Battalions from within that unit.

The abridged version of what the book says is that in Sept 43 Himmler ordered the raising of an Italian SS legion. About 15000 came forward, some volunteers and some pressed men and the officers were sent to officer training school at Ferrara.

One of the newly formed battalions was trained at Debica in Poland hence the name. It would appear that when it was combat ready it initially took the title 1st Assault Brigade, Italian Armed Militia, incorporating its two Battalions Debica and Vendetta. The book goes on to say that these two Battalions would later become I & II Battalions Waffen Grenadier Regt Der Waffen SS 81, which ties very nicely with the info in the previous post.

These units were engaged in heavy fighting around Anzio in early 44 and as a result of their performnce were officially integrated into the Waffen SS.

Close to the end of the war they received their final designation of 29 Waffen Grenadier Division Der SS and the men of Debica were lucky enough to surrender to US forces. Apparently the remainder of the Italian SS were not so lucky and fell into the hands of the partisans. It would appear that many if not most were executed out of hand.

Cant help wondering what happened to the guy in the picture? It seems he might have come from Vendetta and met a sticky end.

Hope that helps

Johnny

[Johnny]

Further to my previous post i thought I'd address the question of the SS runes on the helmet.

There is a depiction in the book of an Italian Waffen Scharfuhrer wearing SS decals on his Italian helmet, albeit on the left side as opposed to the right as featured on German helmets (as in the pic).

The helmet looks to me to be an M1942 with the second pattern SS decals on it. The second pattern decals were abolished in November 43, just after this unit was formed in September 43. As with anything it's quite likely that stocks of the old design would have taken a while to whittle away and these decals were certainly seen in use long after they were abolished.

Date wise it would seem very likely that this man in this unit could be wearing that helmet at that time, i guess the next question is whether he, as a non Germanic soldier would be wearing the runes. There is ample photographic evidence to show that soldiers from foreign legions would in fact wear SS runes either as collar tabs or on the helmets despite the fact that they were not authorised to do so.

The French 33 Waffen Grenadier Div, The Walloon 28 SS Freiwilligen Grenadier Div, 25 & 26 Hungarian Waffen grenadier Divs and 15 & 19 Latvian Waffen Grenadier Divs were all known to wear the runes.

There is the possibility of course that this helmet was used purely for photographic purposes (when i joined the British Army in the late 80's many soldiers would beg borrow or steal kit that was superior in design or finish to their own just for a picture) or it was privately acquired by the officer concerned as it was so symbolic of the Nazi/SS organisation.

After all this waffling my own feeling is that it was probably issued out of existing stocks, he may have got issued one over other men due to his rank or social status.

Hope this helps a bit more.

Johnny

[Johnny]

After all that I should really say that i think it's a lovely portrait. Would anybody be able to find out what happened to this guy?

Johnny

[Cameron]

Excellent stuff from everyone concerned on this, most helpful.

(maybe Glenn J knows his fate Johnny?)

[Glenn J]

Apparently still alive:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34540

Regards

Glenn