Bundesrepublik 1957 cased Oak Leaves help

[Scott P]

Know nothing about these,so I am here to ask for help.These are the pics that the seller has.I havent asked for more but will if need be.Cant afford a real set,dont want fakes.A 57 peice wont hurt my feelings though.

Scott

[attachmentid=60773]

[Scott P]

more

[attachmentid=60774]

[Scott P]

more

[attachmentid=60775]

[Scott P]

the case,thanks again for any advice

Scott

[attachmentid=60776]

[DavidM]

Hello

I can't say for definite from these photos, but this set looks like they have a flat back to them, and if that is the case then, in my opinion, they are reproduction oaks and not a 57 piece. The 57 oaks still had the slightly dished style to the reverse.

Ask the seller if the back is flat or slightly dished. If flat I wouldn't bother with them.

[Scott P]

David,thanks for the answer!I did not ask for more pics because the auction had ended(not ebay)this guy only sells and has over 1176 sells with all positive feedback.Starting price was 80? and buy it now was 95?.But you seem to know,should I ask for more pics?He states not original pre 45.Also the auction ended but it is up for sale again!

Thanks

Scott

[DavidM]

Hello

I'd ask the seller if the back is slightly dished - concave if you prefer - and if possible for a close in, edge on shot, together with a close up of the front. The problem now is that a lot of people are off loading fake or reproductions oaks as 57 pieces.

Ask the question, get some better shots and post the results on here. Personally though, I feel these are some the reproduction pieces that are showing up on places like E-Bay and being sold as 57 items. As with anyone I'm not always right, and at those prices it would be really nice to be wrong about these. Hopefully some of the more experienced 57 collectors will chime in as well.

Grant, DaveB, where are you ?

[Scott P]

Hello Dave,He says they are concaved-curved.I didnt ask for more pics sorry.They are also marked 800.The case I really dont care about and the same thing with the ribbon.Of course it would be nice if they were good also.I just see a REAL set of oak leaves prices are out of this world!Something I could never afford.But a reality check please,would a 57 oak leaves sell as cheap as 80 or 95 euros?I see fake RKs that people buy that are quality examples for 500?.I dont think that anybody is bidding on them because they think they are fakes.Thanks for your patience and time.

Scott

[DavidM]

Hello

Price wise the 57 versions of both the RK and the oaks etc are no where near the cost of their 1939 - 45 counterparts, although the really early quality items are now starting fetch decent money. I too would expect them to be more than the price quoted.

See if you can some good, sharp close in shots of the front and back from the seller. From these pictures it is hard to tell for definite, but I still have reservations on these.

I'm still hoping Grant Broadhurst and some of the other 57 experts chime in on this thread.

[Gordon Williamson]

Early 57 Oaks were made in the same way as the wartime S&L Oaks, with fairly deeply concaved reverse and with the profile cut following the shape of the leaves, very neatly done.

They were made in both solid silver ( as here) and in silver plate.

[Gordon Williamson]

As time went on quality deteriorated, and the profiling was not well executed, leaving excess metal in certain areas. This is a plated set. Still well concaved on the reverse.

Later pieces had much less pronounced concaving and in some examples there is a flat outer edge with only the centre slightly concaved. You can get "real" 57 oaks with almost flat backs.

The quality of the Oaks mirrored the Knight's Crosses, getting poorer and poorer as time went on. On top of that fall off in quality, the 57 Oaks are now being widely faked, along with the 57 Knight's Crosses.

The one posted by Scott looks like it could be a real 57 set from around the mid 1980s but much clearer pics would be needed to be certain.

[Bill Garvy]

A contemporary set of Oak Leaves from Steinhauer & L?ck. . .

[attachmentid=61900]

[attachmentid=61902]

Edited November 24, 2006 by Bill Garvy

[Chris Boonzaier]

A silly question....

Are there official Govt contracters for the 57 pieces?

To be devils advocate here.... if 57 pieces are private purchase items with no govt contracts awarded... technically there could be no "Official" 57 oakleaves and basically anything made by any firm could be considered "original" ?

[Gordon Williamson]

Bill's example shows exactly what I was referring to on later pieces with that flat edge around the reverse.

Chris you make a very good point. It's still common to see references to such pieces as "1957 issue". All 1957 pieces were "private purchase", never issued or awarded by the postwar German government but merely "tolerated" for wear in that de-nazified format.

Whilst there were design and manufacturing specifications, I am not aware of any evidence pointing to specific firms being given official contracts to produce these.

I think the only real worthwhile measure of "originality" is that which separates those which were made in the early postwar period for those surviving vets who wished to wear their awards (not just those who served in the Bundeswehr but those not serving in the military but who might wish to wear their awards at vet reunions etc) and those later pieces which were made purely for the collector market.

However, even this isn't exactly "cut and dried". I know of a number of vets who didn't bother obtaining "57" versions of some of their awards until the 1990s. So is a 1957 piece obtained by a vet entitled to it in 1995 less "authentic" than a "57" version obtained by another vet in 1960 ? One may be poorer quality and less desirable on the collector market but that seems to be the only real difference.

[Chris Boonzaier]

And to complicate matters... I once contacted S and L for some leaves. They told me they did not have any in stock, they simply collected orders... and when they had enough they whacked out a batch... so TECHNICALLY, they were making them for the collectors market. The alternative was to contact the late Werner Sauer who was the guy who was their "collectors liason" and had stocks.

Soooo, seeing that S and L were making batches for collectors... where does that leave us?