EK 1939 Nice but Fake RK

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

No, Brian, I have nothing to add, really. It's all been said before. People aren't stupid. They read and reflect upon the various statements and debates about this on several forums and they make their own minds up about it. All I will say here is that it's a good thing for some of the people involved in the Rounder affair that they will never have to defend themselves in a court.

Season's greetings to you.

PK

Defend in court? What Rounder affair Prosper? Where was the fire? Who got burned? It was debate. It was people believing in a cross that turned out to be postwar. Where is the crime?

You leave the room decrying a crime has been committed. Exactly, exactly what was the crime? And from what I am reading here, if any of us should believe that not only is the A Type a wartime S and L but some of the B types are S and L we are embarking on a life of crime? It's criminal to have an opinon? It's criminal to debate an issue if you end up on the wrong side of science?

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Funny, how this thread has evolved into the cloak of criminal conduct having been committed by forum members who have opinions. Whose stories are taken as part of a grand cabal that took the collector community for monies.

But, not a single word devoted to the man who appears at shows with bags of crosses that end up truly costing collectors huge amounts of cash, Floch. But, not a single word about people who work the Internet under different names on shady sites debating with themselves and selling highend modern made diamond copies. What about these people and the people who knowingly support them? Isn't that really where the money has been taken from collectors? Is this "Rounder affair" just a way to raise tempors, not mine, I know the truth, and deflect people into a discussion about who said what and when about an issue that cost people nothing but time and effort and debate?

Prosper, if you want to talk about "scams", I think we could have a lively gentlemen's debate.

[PKeating]

No, Brian, that's not at all what I wrote. With regard to S&L KCs and the revelations that most of the examples in circulation appear to have been produced after the war, I think it is reasonable to say that the production and supply of 'perfect copies' of wartime awards by some German firms in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s involved intent to defraud collectors.

As for the Rounder affair, what was it if not an attempt to defraud collectors? Fortunately, it was stymied before the idea could be firmly planted in people's minds that the Rounder was a legitimate, genuine wartime KC. This is why you did not see them change hands in significant numbers. You had a Rounder yourself. As many people know, you stated that it was awarded to a relative of yours at Stalingrad, an account presented in at least one reference work as proof that the Rounder was a wartime piece.

I expect you believed that it was your relative's KC. That's fine. We've all been mistaken at times. A lot of things in families with stories attached to them turn out to be other than described. But it would be useful to know when this Rounder came into your family as it might help to establish some idea of when these fantasy pieces first appeared. You stated at one point that your mother Vera von Etzel passed it to you, along with a family Pour-le-M?rite. That's fine too. Many RKT families - and RKT themselves - possess postwar copies of their original award, due to loss or whatever.

So what is the story of your Rounder?

PK

[Dietrich]

A well-composed response

Thank you, but this is not about who composes better or who can best you in a debate. I want to concentrate on the facts.

What is far from funny is the situation of all those people left holding 900/4 S&L crosses bought for $8k to $10k

I'm not aware of any 900/4 cross. Must be a new one!

And now, in addition to the 935/4 crosses, you state that 800/4, 800 and incuse 800 crosses by S&L should be avoided too. In other words, you are admitting that Steinhauer & L?ck KCs are a busted flush as far as any investment potential goes

I never mentioned the 935-4. And i'm not admitting anything what you read into my last post. The 800 and micro 800 A-types are perfectly ok, with or without flaws. And you should know that. I'm talking about the B-types.

It is also clear that Type A and Type B dies were in use after WW2.

Clearly wrong and not supported by any physical evidence. Only the B-Type was used after the war.

But I will end it here. I do not see any purpose of the debate in the climate it has detoriated overall. I apologize to you if I made the impression of besting you in a debate and being a ######.

I leave you the place uncontested.

Dietrich

[PKeating]

I think there is nothing much more to be said. Of course, I meant to type "935/4" rather than "900/4". Simple typo. I suppose, if you're splitting hairs, that you did not refer to "935/4" crosses. What you wrote was: "The "935" post war S&L which was auctioned of yesterday in Germany at Andreas Thies brought over Euro 1,000.-! At least it was sold as such!". I just checked their catalogue. Yes, it was a "935" cross. That said, was there not a debate recently about "935/4" crosses? I think quite a few people consider them questionable as well.

Anyway, good luck with the research. Always fun to exchange views with you.

PK

[Nick]

We have been there and done this one to death. Unless any startling new evidence emerges this topic is closed.