Organisational Badges DRL without Swastika

[speedytop]

Hi Richard,

"It is almost as if a large run of prototypes was made and not accepted."

Why so many prototypes? Germans don't do that! Why should they do it, it is very expensive.

No, absolutely not prototypes. That say my own experience.

"Of those that are post 1945, most do have a MM ..."

That is not correct. I have never seen an original large sports badge w/o the swastika (but with the tip) with a makers mark. The badges with MM are re-worked DRL with swastika.

Only on miniatures I found post WW II maker marks, on a badge with and on a badge without the tip.

"I don't know why they would have received a pin before being cut out as the cut out process surely must take place before the addition of the needle."

There is a great number of these badges with the letters not cut out. So many wrong made pieces? That is not normal for Germans.

"If the DRL without swas dies were a post war design, there would have been no need to rework the old DRL w/swaz dies."

????? Is it my insufficient knowledge of the English language?

Please realize, we are in the post war area 1947, 1948, 1949. At that time they made dishes from steel helmets.

Enclosed is first a picture with the order you prefer:

Look at the loops, and look at the needles.

Does that make sense?

Edited July 9, 2018 by speedytop

[speedytop]

Here is the order, the time line which I prefer:

A close view for the loops 1, 2 and 5:

First number 1, than number 5 and than number 2?

Do you really believe, that the sports organization, the "Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen", say at the end of 1934/early in 1935 to the producer of the documents, print the documents with the badge with swastika, they told the producer of the cloth badges, that they have to produce the new form, DRL with swastika, and to the producer of the badges they say, make hundreds/thousends of badges without the swastika, cut out version or not cut out version, because we don't know, which design we choose?

That is not the way of German organization.

And the maker wait appr. 14 years or more, to sell these badges ?

And do you really believe, that the "Deutscher Reichsbund f?r Leibes?bungen" had no information about such new in that period produced DRL bagdes without the swastika?

Please notice, that I have searched in all the period folders in the Carl-Diem-Archiv in Cologne, in many hundred documents in the era 1933, 1934, 1935 and later.

That is the largest and best archive about German sports badges you can find, all the documents from 1912 to this day.

Not one document with a note for a DRL without the swastika!

Regards

Uwe

I beg your pardon for my bad English, I could express it better in German

Edited July 30, 2020 by speedytop
picture change

[Richard V]

Hi Richard,

"It is almost as if a large run of prototypes was made and not accepted."

Why so many prototypes? Germans don't do that! Why should they do it, it is very expensive.

No, absolutely not prototypes. That say my own experience.

I just meant to imply that they were produced in large numbers but appear never to have been issued or awarded. I know of no instance in which the badges that are not cut out appear on any photographs of a wearer either pre or post 1945. This could be due to the fact they were never issued. Based on the lack of photos, it would not help to define the time during which they were produced.

"Of those that are post 1945, most do have a MM ..."

That is not correct. I have never seen an original large sports badge w/o the swastika (but with the tip) with a makers mark. The badges with MM are re-worked DRL with swastika.

Only on miniatures I found post WW II maker marks, on a badge with and on a badge without the tip.

I think we are saying the same thing here. Those that are definitely, without a doubt post 1945 are those that have been reworked. These have the MM. When I referred to those that are post 1945, it is these reworked badges to which I am referring, not to the DRL without swastikas that are from an original and not reworked die.

"I don't know why they would have received a pin before being cut out as the cut out process surely must take place before the addition of the needle."

There is a great number of these badges with the letters not cut out. So many wrong made pieces? That is not normal for Germans.

Despite the propensity to view the Germans as perfectionist in their creations, there are numerous examples where perfection did not exist such as the IAB's marked Fank and Reif and the Schrobenhansen Westwall medal packets. However, I am not saying they were made incorrectly, I am saying that for what ever reason, they were assembled prior to having the letters cut out and, as such, are the only ones of the series that have this phenomenon. It is quite likely that they were rushed into production to fill a void and it was decided that this "final touch" was unnecessary. I would love to hear a good explanation of why imperfection is not normal for Germans but suddenly the normal pattern of a badge (cut out letters) is not followed for one particular series.

"If the DRL without swas dies were a post war design, there would have been no need to rework the old DRL w/swaz dies."

????? Is it my insufficient knowledge of the English language?

Please realize, we are in the post war area 1947, 1948, 1949. At that time they made dishes from steel helmets.

As everything was in short supply after war's end, surely someone would not think to create a new set of dies for an award when there would be plenty of dies to be reworked during this period. My point here is why would anyone create new dies when reworked dies could be used and apparently were? Until a period photo is found with a badge that is not cut out in wear, I don't think the timeline of where these badges fit can be proven only theorized.

Does anyone have any paperwork showing how late DRL badges were presented after the war?

Richard V

[Eric Stahlhut]

here is an example of a full-sized LSA silver grade (1949-1952)

any idea how many were issued?

[Eric Stahlhut]

i browsed all of the larger german dealer sites, but couldn't find one for sale at this moment. any idea of rarity, chaps?

here's the reverse. unmarked for maker

[Eric Stahlhut]

one more view of the reverse hardware

[speedytop]

Hi Eric,

awarded badges "Landessportabzeichen" (LSA) in Württemberg, Baden and Hohenzollern: 3.888 in Bronze, Silber and Gold, for men and women.

I don't know, who the maker is; it does not look as if it had been produced by St&L.

The badge is not common; and try to find an award document for it!

Uwe

Edited July 30, 2020 by speedytop
Hohenzollern added

[Eric Stahlhut]

Hallo Uwe,

thank you very much for the info, sir. i appreciate it very much!

i realize that this item should have been posted on another subforum, but i think it ties in nicely with all of the info you have so kindly provided in this particular thread.