red coat

[Mossy]

Just found this thread again, Thanks for all that info Harribobs and Graham.

I'll have start start looking for Mr. Lomax in the aussie records. Would you be able to PM our email me all the info you found on him in the british records, you never know what small point can id a person.

Sam.

[hunter99]

Harribobs,

I have two photographs (1914/15) of 6th Batt officers, both have standard Manchester Regiment dogs with a territorials 'T' (seperate badge) on their SDs.

[harribobs]

absolutely right..

like these

with a set of these

cheers Hunter

[Mossy]

Nice badges! What does the scroll above 'Manchester' read?

Sam.

[harribobs]

they are standard Manchester Regiment badges from 1908- 1922, there are variations of course

the top one is the cap badge, the middle pair the collar 'dogs' and the lower pair shoulder titles, the 6th battalion ORs also had their own shoulder title

councilio et labore means something like 'wisdom and hard work'

chris

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=36697]

Harribobs,

What size are those two plain brass T's that you have on display, are they lugged or bladed? As they actually look like greatcoat T's, which were introduced onto other ranks Service Dress shoulder straps later in the War, usually for Home Service Territorial battalions. They were usually worn with the regimental title only on the great coat without numerals i.e. T/MANCHESTER.

The officers SD collar T's were half as big again as shoulder title T's and usually in bronze to match the collar badge. Just added the photo for interest as it shows the collar badges & T's being worn.

Graham.

[harribobs]

I'd guess at them being around 3/4" tall, with lugs N & S ( at work at the moment)

they are the same size as others I've seen worn on Mancs terriers oficers collars, (we have a uniformed mannequin in the manchesters museum with them)

[Graham Stewart]

[attachmentid=36742]

Harribobs,

Cobbled this together from my spares to show the difference. Below the officers bronze collar badge is the correct size 'T' and below that the slightly larger 'C' for Cadet Officers. The slightly large 'T' actually has a gilt finish and may be off the officers 'blue patrol' jacket(collar/shoulder strap). The greatcoat 'T's are much larger as you can see and were worn as shown without numerals, but they eventually migrated to the other ranks SD jacket shoulder straps in Home Service T.F. units.

Graham.

[hunter99]

2nd Lt R.C.BROOKS 1/6 th Manchester

[Graham Stewart]

Hunter99,

Nice photo, definatley showing a small 'T' as show in my last post and not the larger great coat type. T.F. Regulations 1912 amended to 1st Decmber 1914, Para 451 simply states;-"The letter 'T' will be worn below the badges of rank on all shoulder cords and shoulder straps. In service dress the 'T' in bronze will be worn on the collar of the jacket below the collar badge".

Alas no measurement of the 'T' is given.

Graham.

[harribobs]

Hunter

great picture....can i put it in our site?

mancs

T's ..........

[hunter99]

harribobs,

Please do , plus the following INFO and pictures

2nd Lt Rowland Causer BROOKS. 1/6th K.I.A 4/6/15

PICTURE 2

Capt Achibald Buckley BROOKS. 2/6 th. K.I.A 7/10/17

[

Edited April 29, 2006 by hunter99

[hunter99]

[

T.P.BRYANT 8TH Batt Manchester Reg, after the war 1st Batt

[harribobs]

thanks Hunter

much appreciated

[Stuart Bates]

I looked at the Army Lists from 1900 to 1913 and found H. Lomax as follows -

6th Jan 1900 - Commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant in the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Cheshire Regiment

10th Sept. 1901 - Promoted to Lieutenant in the same regiment

14th May 1904 - Transferred to 2nd Volunteer Battalion Manchester Regiment as Lieutenant

I have no lists for 1907-1910 but in the list of 1911 he had moved to the 6th Volunteer battalion presumably as a result of the 1908 reorganisation.

The two stars to the shoulder cords indicated a Lieutenant from 1902, prior to that 2 stars indicated a captain.

He does not appear in the Army List of 1913.

Stuart

[harribobs]

I looked at the Army Lists from 1900 to 1913 and found H. Lomax as follows -

6th Jan 1900 - Commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant in the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Cheshire Regiment

10th Sept. 1901 - Promoted to Lieutenant in the same regiment

14th May 1904 - Transferred to 2nd Volunteer Battalion Manchester Regiment as Lieutenant

I have no lists for 1907-1910 but in the list of 1911 he had moved to the 6th Volunteer battalion presumably as a result of the 1908 reorganisation.

The two stars to the shoulder cords indicated a Lieutenant from 1902, prior to that 2 stars indicated a captain.

He does not appear in the Army List of 1913.

Stuart

Hi Stuart

What actually happened in the Haldane reforms/reorganisation was that the 2nd Volunteer Battalion MR became the 6th Territorial Battalion MR, so he didn't really move battalions at all

cheers

chris

The Manchester Regiment group

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Chris,

yes I phrased it badly. I just got back from a walk with the dogs and realised the poor terminology, and so was going to correct it but you beat me to it. Can you explain the yellow facings? I thought all English regiments had white facings at this time, except of course, royal regiments. I don't know if VB were different.

Stuart

Edited February 23, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Somebody mentioned emmigration to Australia so I had a quick look. All I could come up with was a Harry Lomax, born Bolton, Lancashire, age 30 years and 4 months who enlisted in May 1915 and was killed at Gallipoli. I suppose it's a bit hard to believe that he could have been commissioned as 2nd Lt at the tender age of 15 years.

Stuart

[harribobs]

Hi Stuart

yes 15 does sound a mite too young!

i am not really sure why the 2nd VB had yellow facings, they were raised as the 6th Lancashire Rifle Volunteers and absorbed another few units along the way, but all the other VBs had white facings

i might just ask the question in our forum and see if anyone has the answer

cheers

chris

The Manchester Regiment Group

[leigh kitchen]

Mossy,

It's an 1881 pattern officer's tunic to the Manchester Regiment. It isn't even a regular officers tunic as both the silver buttons and silver lace indicate it actually was worn by an officer in either the pre-1908 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Manchester Regiment or post 1908 6th Bn, Manchester Regiment, which were the only Manchester Battalion's to wear yellow facings.

A look through the Army List's should determine whether or not Lomax served with either of these two battalions.

Graham.

Was'nt officers silver lace changed to gold in 1914 shortly after WWI started, as a recruiting aid?

[leigh kitchen]

[attachmentid=36742]

Harribobs,

Cobbled this together from my spares to show the difference. Below the officers bronze collar badge is the correct size 'T' and below that the slightly larger 'C' for Cadet Officers. The slightly large 'T' actually has a gilt finish and may be off the officers 'blue patrol' jacket(collar/shoulder strap). The greatcoat 'T's are much larger as you can see and were worn as shown without numerals, but they eventually migrated to the other ranks SD jacket shoulder straps in Home Service T.F. units.

Graham.

I know it's not relevant to the subject of this thread, but isn't that the "FASA" mispelling of "FATA" variation of the Northumberlands shoulder title?

Edited February 23, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[harribobs]

Was'nt officers silver lace changed to gold in 1914 shortly after WWI started, as a recruiting aid?

shortly after the Great War started, the major change to the Manchester Regiment Territorials uniform was the dust, mud and blood of Egypt, Gallipoli and Flanders

chris

[Graham Stewart]

Territorial Force Regulations 1912(amended to 1st December 1914).

Para 453;-

Except in the case of Corps for which special uniforms have been sanctioned, full dress uniform will, as far as possible, conform to that of corresponding units of the regular forces, silver lace and white metal buttons and ornaments being substituted for gold and gilt metal. Yeomanry regiments which prior to the formation of the Territorial Force, had permission to wear gold lace and gilt ornaments retain this distinction.

So this uniform pre-dates these regulations, by having silver lace. You could also apply for a T.F. commission from the age of 17years old.

Leigh,

Yes - "FASA" is found in only one particular pattern of NF O/R's shoulder title, the remaining patterns, of which there are a few, have "FATA".

Graham.

[leigh kitchen]

shortly after the Great War started, the major change to the Manchester Regiment Territorials uniform was the dust, mud and blood of Egypt, Gallipoli and Flanders

chris

Yes, I suspect that their service dress may have become a little grubby, but I believe I'm right in saying that the regulations concerning lace & button colours were changed from silver to gold, possibly as early as August 1914?

[harribobs]

Yes, I suspect that their service dress may have become a little grubby, but I believe I'm right in saying that the regulations concerning lace & button colours were changed from silver to gold, possibly as early as August 1914?

i honestly don't know, but the uniforms of the Volunteer Battalions we were discussing had disappeared in 1908

SDs were introduced in 1902 (IIRC), i haven't really come across any TF soldiers in red jackets after that

cheers

chris