Restrictions of Decoration Ownership

[Rod]

I am curious.......

Would someone please comment on past restrictions (if any) of purchasing or even owning pre 1914 orders, decorations and medals during the time the particular issuing state was still functioning. Would the purchaser of replacement items have to prove to the jeweler the right to purchase and own such items? Somewhere I have read that there were some sort of controls (laws?), but for the life of me I cannot re-locate that source.

Rod

Edited March 5, 2007 by Rod

[Rod]

Geeeesshhh guys am I way off base with this query???

Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

No clue. Never seen any regulations on private acquisition of duplicates. The only regulations I've ever seen concern requirements on returns after death or next of kin buying items to keep them as mementoes.

[Roeland]

I don't know the rules, but I do know that people received an award document giving them the right to where them.

For example I have seen documents from a medal, a commemorative one for WW1, it said at the backside; If someone want's the medal one could buy it at certain jeweler shops for 0,60 , one on a spange for 1,20 and a box for it just for 0,45 extra(don't know the exact costs but they where low, just figurative numbers, just an example).

So I think one could order it as long as they could prove they had the right document, but I still don't really know, only saw this at a commemorative medal so don't know how the rest would be, I am curious myself and wondered for long about this.

[Stogieman]

ODM duplicates, private-purchase, "wearing copies", etc. could NOT be purchased in Germany or Austria without the document giving proof of right, often called "legitimization".

Most House Orders were received directly from the respective states' orders chancellry and had to be returned upon the death of the recipient. In Saxony, at least, this included the Silver & Gold Medals of the Military Order of Saint Henry.

The recipient's family had the option/opportunity (most of the time) to purchase the item in question directly from the state and for what (IMO) seemed a rather exhorbitant sum of DM. There's at least one image of a bill for just such a purpose, as well as one "demand" letter for the return of an order from Bavaria kicking around in Imperial somewhere....

[Rod]

Would I therfore be correct in saying that because of these "controls" there is a significant less of a chance in running into fakes with imperial items as opposed to the TR? I would also think that because of the intricate work especially enameling would really discourage post imperial period copies?

Rod

Edited March 10, 2007 by Rod

[medalnet]

This may be unrelated to the initial question, but in regards to the last remark:

The price of an replacement order decoration before 1918 was rather high. Imagine that 20 Goldmark almost represented a weeks wage. You may have gotten a knight 1st class for that. I believe that orders got rarely replaced, just for monetary reasons. One had to very well off to acquire additional or replacement pieces.

The attached list comes form the Hoeftman and give a nice overview on pricing for Prussian decorations arround the century change.

III.Reich pieces did not cost anything in comparison.

[Stogieman]

Hi Rod, unfortunately..... no. There is incidence of fake Imperial ODM, perhaps not quite to the degree of Post-Imperial German, but there nonetheless. The rarer the ODM, or the higher the perceived demand, the higher the incidence of fakes. Example: Prussian PLM, Prussian GMVK, Prussian MVK1, Imperial Aviation Badges, any state, etc.

BUT, researchm study and many, many questions and a consensus amongst the more experienced should help guard against copies. The chaps aren't perfect, but they strive for it.

A BIG caution needs to be advised regarding the purchase of any medal/ribbon bar given the incredibly prolific incidence of copies, post-ww2 fabrications, etc. Often times, these will use authentic ribbons, devices and medals but constructed so as to raise alarm amongst the experienced.

We've all been burned at one time or another, but we try to reduce the probability as much as possible.

I would advise much reading, much studying and much purchasing of references prior to investing anything other than time.

[Rod]

Many thanks for the replies ---- some great information!!

I am still bothered by something I quickly read and cannot again find. (I am starting to think I dreamed it up!!! )

Let me ask this.... was there ever a time in which it was actually illegal for someone who was not an awardee or perhaps a family member to own an award?

Sorry to keep bugging you.

Rod

[Rod]

Let me really stick my foot in my mouth...

BUT as I recall there was a posting by medalnet....... that mentioned the "illegal" part!

Please forgive me Andreas if I am wrong but it seems you said that some of us are not old enough to remember the "old" times.

OHHHHH I hope I am not over stepping as my memory is fragmentary!!!!

Rod