have no one seen this bar?

[WNickel]

Hi,

there are often only a few minutes to see a new bar at ebay in this forum - but this bar seems to be not interesting enough...

What's the matter????

Werner

[derGeneral]

On a german board was a long discussion about this bar, but we wasn't sure if its a fake or original. If the bar is authentic it's a really great piece, of course the crown order is on a non combat ribbon But there is still missing a long service medal an the ribbons also looks very new to me

[Guest Rick Research]

Werner-- I don't like it either:

the W?rttemberg Verdienstkreuz X would go to some 1914+ Feldwebelleutnant type person-- which does not go with a pre-war recipient of an EXTREMELY rare KO4w, which would have gone to some sort of long serving Zahlmeister or the like--

so where is the 1897 medal, as well as a long service award?

Is there a scan of the back? Not that it will make me any happier with this combination and precedence. (Spange for the SWA but none for the Kolonial, which was newer and should be in front of the SWA?)

tooooooo many problems

[webr55]

This is the back:

Edited November 13, 2017 by webr55

[WNickel]

This is the back:

Hi,

that's good - let us begin. It's true, that the ribbons looks new, but that's only the lastest argument. On my opinion the order of the SWA-medal and the Kolonial-DM is unimportant, a missing clasp for the Kolonial-DM, too

The missing long service cross is a good argument , but which persons got a crown order on the white ribbon???? And had these persons wearing a centenar medal????

I say "NO"....

And now you....

[WNickel]

Hi general,

which was the german board???

[WNickel]

For example a bar with thr Kolonial-DM with not bar....

[WNickel]

...and now a special question for Rick...

Which kind of people have a bar like this....?

[Stogieman]

Hallo Werner! Wie Sie sind? Ich bin nicht sicher ich verstehe die Frage?

Do you mean rank?

Position?

I hope you are well!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, true enough Werner but

I could see if the medal bar had NO Spangen, but to have lost the LATER one but kept an earlier one is weird.

But what I can not get around is a reduction in rank from higher before the war to lower during the war...

unless that is a WORLD WAR KO4w....

in which case that is waaaaaaaay too exotic for me. Nothing to judge by in my experience. (A "white-black" KO4 AND a "black-white" EK and BOTH for 1914-18? )

And I just can't imagine, if not a Zahlmeister, a Feldpost or Eisenbahn type Beamter getting TWO combatant colonial campaign medals and nothing as a peacetime civil service award. It's just too weird!

Now if it was a combatant ribbon MEZ2 and a "white-black" EK, THAT I could understand as an ex-NCO turned Beamter.

[Ulsterman]

...and now a special question for Rick...

Which kind of people have a bar like this....?

Deputy officers who were war time volunteers and later became teachers, civil servants or the like -and who lived until 1936.

The man below was an NCO who got 'bumped up'.

Edited March 17, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Stogieman]

Great image Ulsterman!

[Chip]

Ulsterman,

When you say this Saxon was bumped up, bumped up to what? I ask this because I was trying to think of what a deputy officer is and I could only come up with a Feldwebelleuntnant. This soldier has a pip on his boards. I have never heard of a Feldwebeloberleutnant, so what am I missing here? Would that not then make this fellow just a regular Oberleutnant? And is it just my old eyes or is that an enlisted national cockade on his cap? The state cockade looks like a regular Saxon officer's, but that other one sure doesn't look like an officer's to me. Strange.

Chip

[derGeneral]

@ WNickel

In the Sammlergemeinschaft Deutscher Auszeichnungen !

[WNickel]

Hello,

the saxon bar is on my opinion a typical bar of a Feldpostsekret?r - more than 200 got the Albrechtskreuz with swords. I also found more than 600 Postbeamte with the iron cross 2. class and the black ribbon. At least there are many bavarian Postsekret?re with the iron cross and the black ribbon.

In southwest 11 Postbeamte or Telegraphenbeamte got the crown order 4. class with white ribbon.

There was a great difference between the german states and their awards given to the lower classes of Beamten. I have an example of an Eisenbahnstationsvorsteher, who got the Mecklenburg goldenes Verdienstkreuz and the Oldenburg Hausorden 3. class without crown at the same time.

In Preu?en the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen was given to persons with a long time of service - what was given to a Feldpostsekret?r, who was 25-30 years old during his time in southwest?

In WW1 Bayern and Sachsen Feldpostsekret?re got the Milit?rverdienstkreuz or the Albrechtskreuz with swords - what got these people from W?rttemberg?

Werner

[Ulsterman]

Ulsterman,

When you say this Saxon was bumped up, bumped up to what? I ask this because I was trying to think of what a deputy officer is and I could only come up with a Feldwebelleuntnant. This soldier has a pip on his boards. I have never heard of a Feldwebeloberleutnant, so what am I missing here? Would that not then make this fellow just a regular Oberleutnant? And is it just my old eyes or is that an enlisted national cockade on his cap? The state cockade looks like a regular Saxon officer's, but that other one sure doesn't look like an officer's to me. Strange.

Chip

It's an odd picture to be sure-but look at the LS medal. NCOs only. He got a promotion.

[Guest Rick Research]

You're right Werner.

What's the number on the Saxon's boards?

[WNickel]

Hi Rick,

the great master agree on my opinion

Here another example - I have shown it in thread years before - of a crown order 4. class on white ribbon wearer. It's the bar of Marineassistenzarzt Jansen. He got the crown order 4. class on white ribbon without swords in 1904, in 1908 he got the swords and the black ribbon to the crown order on white ribbon after he got the clasps to the southwest medal.

In WW1 he got the EK 2 and even the EK 1 as Marineoberstabsarzt on Helgoland - and now notice....he wear the cross for Kriegsteilnehmer .... to Rick

Werner

[Chip]

Rick,

The regiment is the 243.R.I.R., which was raised in the XIX A.K. and spent nearly the entire war with the 53.Res.Div. The division was in the process of being dissolved when it got caugt up in the American attack of the Meuse-Argonne offensive.

Chip

[Ulsterman]

You're right Werner.

What's the number on the Saxon's boards?

The medal though was only to senior NCOs and warrent officers/deputy officers though-or am I wrong?

Officers got the Albrecht Order-the enameled piece.

This guy got promoted to Obrlt. dR-from the ranks!

[Guest Rick Research]

I think he's "only" a Leutnant and that's one of his V flecks not a pip down near the shoulder. The Saxons seem to have been much fairer about commissioning NCOs than the other Gerkan states. He was probably a Feldwebelleutnant before being made a leutnant or Leutnant dR. Unfortunately the Honor Rank List still didn't list these wartime regulars since they were not "career path" officers.

Alas, there is not a single 243 RIR recipient of the SMK, which means he got it in another outfit. At some point, will be able to do a comparison of the SA4X and SMK rolls and see what turns up there. I've saved the image and will udse that as an aide memoire to see if I can run down a recipient. match.

Werner, you have got to get an Epson scanner! It is torture seeing such icky images of your Spangen!

[Chip]

Rick,

Your eyes are older than mine! Looks like the other board has a pip on it too. Can't see any darts on that side.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah, but I am slipping into my declining years gracefully.

I went through the Meiningen SMKS and the only two I could find with Saxon Albert Verdienstkreuze Xs were Feldwebelleutnant and later Leutnaant der Landwehr Eugen Steinbach of Life Grenadier Regiment 100 and Feldwebelleutnant and later Feldwebelleutnant dL Wilhelm Kitzig of Infantry Regiment 415. There may be a few others due to changes in units between those two awards (so can't be sure it is the same person who moved rather than two diffrent ones) and a few with no first names so can't tell if they ARE matches, but nobody with these infantry numbers.

Oh, for a named dedication on back!

[Ulsterman]

1. It is a pip on the shoulder board

2. It is # 243

3. Picture was taken in the latter half of 1918-19 as he also wears a black wound badge

Alas-no name (yet)....