Republic of Ireland IRISH 1916 IRA SET On EBAY

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents.

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Irish-1916-Rising-and-W...1QQcmdZViewItem

The seller appears to be honest enough with the description, but I dont like the re-ribboned look (cant say I like the start price either, but thats just me being tight. )

Kevin in Deva.

[Ed_Haynes]

Oh . . . pretty

While, for that much money, it would be nice to have some provenance, this might well (?) be how the recipient wore them (but . . . ??).

[Danny70]

Hi Kevin,

I agree the starting price is high, but these medals prices have soared lately. I have seen a lone 1916 medal without provenance sell at auction for ?5,400!

For that (Lot No. 124) and many more related items see:

http://www.whytes.ie/4OnlineCatalogue3bylo...0&offset=20

In relation to this auction, I may well be wrong but I have my doubts about the 1916 medal - the detail seems a little too fuzzy. It is a pity both medals are missing their suspension bars. Still, it will be interesting to see the final price.

Here is a picture of one from a friends collection for comparison.

Regards - Danny

[PKeating]

The War of Independence Service Medal looks real at a glance but I share your doubts about the 1916 Medal. It looks neither like a period original nor one of the official reissues from the 1960s. I'm also a bit thrown by the tale about storage conditions that caused the original ribbons to disintegrate but had no apparent effect upon the medals. I'd also expect to see a Comrac clasp on the WISM although I am sure some non-combattant recipients qualified for the 1916 medal.

Are we getting too paranoid?

PK

Edited March 21, 2007 by PKeating

[Paul L Murphy]

It may be the fault of the photos but I would certainly want to handle that 1916 Medal before passing judgement. It lacks some of the detail I would expect from an original but it also lacks some of the reverse telltale signs of the fakes I have seen. If this pair are genuine then even without provenance they are probably worth in the region of 6,000 Euros based on where market values have gone recently.

An officially named 1916 Medal or an unnamed item with sound provenance will set you back more than 10,000 Euros these days. When I started collecting them I was getting named pairs for less than 1/10th of that !

[PKeating]

The metal doesn't look right where that eBay 1916 medal is concerned. Perhaps it's due to oxidisation. Perhaps the lack of detail and the pitting are due to the medal having been "restored" by aggressive cleaning to remove verdigris, followed by chemical toning to try to make it look old again. Maybe the clown who mounted the medals like that cleaned it up? Just for interest, an officially named WISM with Comrac clasp. Dr Shannon was one of my great-uncles. I am told that officers' medals were issued named.

PK

[Danny70]

Just looking at the pictures again.... Is it just me (or the angle of the medal in the photograph), but the 1916 medal looks like it is too small in relation to the Independence medal.

Here's another shot showing an Independence medal with two 1916's.

- Danny

[PKeating]

It certainly does look smaller than it should look beside the Independence medal. Well-spotted! It must be a cast copy. That would explain not just the fuzzy detail and pitting but the dodgy colour and the fact that it appears to be smaller than the known originals from the White's auction. The vendor might not know. I was looking at his other sales and he seems reasonable enough. It might be an old fake or copy. They've been faking these things since the 1966 anniversary. I think they also produced some copies then, cast from an original and sold as commemorative copies. If the story about finding them in the house in a tin is true, it's possible that some elderly Walt like the thousands who convinced the Irish government that they were eligible for the WISM mounted the fake 1916 medal with his non-combattant's WISM and posed down the pub. It's a bit like all the old gits here in France who tell you they were with la R?sistance. If the IRA had been as large as the medal roll and all those awards in the 1950s and 1960s suggest, the War of Independence would have over somewhat faster! LOL!

PK

Edited March 21, 2007 by PKeating

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Prosper,

Nice set of Medals,

any comment with regards the medal ribbon ring attachment on the Independance Medal thats up on ebay?

To my eyes it looks very thin

I have sent a question to the seller with regards diameter and weight of the medals, awaiting a reply.

I understand what you mean with regards the wannabe's, every soldier I served with in Castlebar Infantry Barracks from Mayo had a Grandfather who fought with the I.R.A. depending on how much drink had been taken the kill ratio went up correspondingly, however my research into the Military history of the area showed very few caualties recorded on all sides, i.e. R.I.C. - I.R.A. - B.A. - B. &. T. Activity in the West was extremely quite, apart from a few well recorded ambushes with small casualties.

More Mayo locals were killed in the (Un)-Civil War than the War of Independance period.

Kevin in Deva.

[Paul L Murphy]

Well spotted on the size of the 1916 Medal, that effectively consigns it to the fake bin.

With regard to named medals, the named medals are those awarded to next of kin for recipients who had died before the medals were instituted in 1941. Also late claims by next of kin were given a named medal as well, which is why the higher numbered named 1916 medals are the thicker late issues. There were 401 officially named 1916 medals (if my memory is correct) and about 2,500 officially named medals for the Anglo Irish War, pretty evenly split between those with and without the Comhrac bar. The rank of the recipient had nothing to do with naming.

Regards,

Paul

[PKeating]

Kev,

The 1916 groups are from Whyte's website. I wish I had a 1916 medal. One of these days... I just have the War of Independence Service Medals. Speaking of which, I noticed the jump ring differences too. However, I have seen thick and thin jump rings on original War of Independence Service Medals in the hands of veterans or veterans? families. I think the eBay WISM is probably okay but it?ll be interesting to see what response you get. You?ll see an innocuous question there from me.

Regarding casualties in the Anglo-Irish War, or War of Independence, people are often surprised by the relatively low figures. Most historians appear to agree on a figure of around 1,400 on all sides. The Police Service of Northern Ireland, which is the heir via the RUC to the old RIC, lists 418 members of the Royal irish Constabulary killed, compared to 146 British solldiers. The IRA targeted the RIC more than the British Army because, for one things, the police weren?t as skilled in arms as trained soldiers and it was therefore easier to raid their barracks and, having suppressed resistance, make off with the contents of their armouries. The Civil War, in contrast, resulted in more than 4,000 deaths in just eleven months. It could have been a lot worse. Look at Spain, some fifteen years later: over a million people died, roughly a quarter of Spain?s population at the time. There again, the IRA volunteers who rebelled against the Treaty were under-equipped and no match for the Free State Army, which fought the rebels with extreme brutality, often taking no prisoners or else ensuring that prisoners taken didn?t live very long. My grandfather was sent to Cork to get a grip of the Free State units there after complaints were received in Dublin from prominent Cork people about the public torture and killing of IRA prisoners. A favourite method was to drag them to death behind trucks as the mob cheered. Setting fire to gasoline-soaked prisoners and taking bets on how long they remained standing or running about was another favourite too. Of course, if you bring this kind of thing up in a revisionist Ireland, where the only villains were the Black and Tans, people don?t like it. The IRA did some awful things as well. But they were more sinned against than sinners. The Treaty was only accepted because De Valera took Lloyd-George?s threat to flood Ireland with a million men-under-arms seriously. De Valera set Collins up to take the fall for it too. Mind you, Collins probably wouldn?t have made a good peacetime leader. He was too prone to resorting to violence to make his point.

Anyway...ancient history!

Paul,

Thanks for the clarification of the naming process. I?ll ask my aunt when the family applied for and received Dr Shannon?s medal. I know he died when she was quite young but he was certainly alive in the 1960s.

PK

Edited March 22, 2007 by PKeating

[Paul L Murphy]

The 1916 Group illustrated from Whyte's catalogue is the group to Michael O'Riordan.

I have a similar group of four to Brigid Connelly (no relation to James) who served with Cumann na mBan in the GPO Garrison. It came with substnatial paperwork including her invitations to sign the 1916 Roll of Honour, veteran reunion invites etc. as well as her pension application. The value for a group like this is now in the region of EUR25,000 and rising all the time. It will be interesting to see what prices are like in Adams next auction on 17th April.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents

I got the following reply from Brendan (every-thing-irish) the seller of the Irish 1916 Set:

Hi Kevin,

The 1916 medal measures 1 and a ? inches/38mm across, the Black and Tan medal over 1 and ? inches, 42mm. The whole thing weighs 63g or 2 and a ? ounces. It is difficult to weigh the medals individually but it looks like the 1916 medal on its own, not including the ribbon, weighs 18g and the Black and Tan 36g. Hope this helps.

Thanks, Brendan.

Would anybody with a set of these medals handy care to post the size and weights? many thanks,

from Kevin in Deva

Edited March 22, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[PKeating]

The auction was stopped at ?2,700.00 today, with five hours to go, by the vendor. No explanation given. However, I rather like the answer regarding the rings of the medals and how ribbons are fitted.

Question & Answer Answered On

Q: Hi there, looking at the edge of the 1916 medal, is there a seam in the centre (of the edge)running all the way around the medal ? Can you give a precise measurement of the 1916 medal, measuring across from the extreme east tip of the sunburst ray to to the extreme opposite point on the west tip. As a matter of interest the War of Independence medal is the non combattant variety issued to Fianna Eirean, Cumann na mBan, etc. Thanks for your help, Ozzy 25-Mar-07

A: Hi Ozzy, The tip to tip measurement is 38mm, I can?t see a seam running around the edge but I would say the medal has not been cleaned for some years, I have it 27 years and have not cleaned it and when I found it it looked as if it had been in the tin for at least ten years so it?s probably 40 years since it was cleaned so the seam might be there. Thanks, Brendan.

Q: what would you sell the 1916 medal for regards peter 24-Mar-07

A: Hi Peter, Sorry but if they don?t sell in the auction they are going to a Dublin medal collector who wants the pair. Thanks, Brendan.

Q: WHY ARE THE RINGS CONNECTING THE RIBBONS TO THE MEDALS SPLIT. I HAVE A NUMBER OF MEDALS NAMED, AND NONE OF THEM RESEMBLE THESE. REGARDS MICK (ARE YOU GOING TO POST THIS QUESTION) 24-Mar-07

A: Hi Mick, I have never actually put a new ribbon on a medal but the person who put the new ribbons on these medals told me that in order to attach the ring to the ribbon the medal is removed from the ring and when the ring is attached to the ribbon the medal is then re-attached to the ring so this is why the rings appear split. The answer to your second question is yes; all questions are posted on the auction. Thanks, Brendan.

Q: do you know who these medals were originally awarded to? anthony. 23-Mar-07

A: Hi Anthony, I don?t know who they were awarded to, when I found them they were in a cigarette tin with several other Irish Dance and Sports medals which were named to several different people so I guess they were part of someone?s collection or a dealers lot. Thanks, Brendan.

Q: Dear Sir or Madam, can you give me the diameter of the medals and their weight please. Kevin A. Ryan 22-Mar-07

A: Hi Kevin, The 1916 medal measures 1 and a ? inches/38mm across, the Black and Tan medal over 1 and ? inches, 42mm. The whole thing weighs 63g or 2 and a ? ounces. It is difficult to weigh the medals individually but it looks like the 1916 medal on its own, not including the ribbon, weighs 18g and the Black and Tan 36g. Hope this helps. Thanks, Brendan.

Q: Has the 1916 medal been subjected to any form of cleaning, perhaps to remove verdigris? Regards, Paddy Keating 21-Mar-07

A: Hi Paddy, I have the medals nearly 27 years and I have never cleaned them, they have been in a cupboard for 25 of the 27 years. When I got the medals they looked more or less as they do now. Thanks.

I wonder how much that Dublin medal collector paid for them. Or do you think the penny dropped and this chap withdrew them after realising that there was a problem?

PK

Edited March 26, 2007 by PKeating

[ardmhacha]

The auction was stopped at ?2,700.00 today, with five hours to go, by the vendor. No explanation given. However, I rather like the answer regarding the rings of the medals and how ribbons are fitted.

I wonder how much that Dublin medal collector paid for them. Or do you think the penny dropped and this chap withdrew them after realising that there was a problem?

PK

[ardmhacha]

These are both copies coming into the country from Australia. I bought two to compare them to my originals and then destroyed them. The guy in Australia seemed to have closed his website down. He told me he was having problems obtaining suspension bars from his supplier.

These are the most blatant copies I have seen in a while. Actions like this ruin it for up and coming collectors.

[PKeating]

I remember that website! I last looked at it about four years ago. So they're both copies and the vendor was 'exaggerating' with his take of finding these in Dublin back in 1980? So much for him...

PK

[Brendan]

Hi,

I have just joined the forum to put forward my side of the debate on the 1916 and Service medal pair auction on Ebay. To start with I should let you know I am every-thing-irish.

The explanation of where I got the medals is true, they were found in a house clearance in Dublin. When I found them the original ribbons were covered in black mould and I discarded them.

On Monday morning, the day the auction was due to end, a collector of 1916 medals called to me to pick up some ribbon and was kind enough to bring along his original 1916 medals for comparison with the one I had listed on Ebay. After some examination, detailed measurements and discussion there was a doubt concerning the seam which should run round the edge of the medal where the two halves are joined during manufacture, the seam on the medal in question was intermittent rather than continues as you would expect. This could have been as a result of a good join or it could have been the seam was not recorded in the mould if the medal was a copy. Because of this doubt I decided to pull the auction, I only sell genuine items.

The size of the medal was almost identical to the comparison. I had the ribbons done on the medals twice. The first time it was by a medal collector in Dublin. He did a good enough job but when I bought some WW1 medals from a dealer in England I availed of his 'Professional Medal Mounting' service, as this forum and Ebay forbid the use of profanities I would say the job he did was less than perfect although they do look alright from the front.

As it turned out my attempts to pull the auction failed because Ebay do not let you cancel an auction if it has less than 12 hours to go, I replaced the pictures of the medals with Do Not Bid images and cancelled any bids but as I sort of expected someone went and bid in the last few seconds and I was unable to cancel their bid in time. I was also unable to add to the description to inform potential bidders of my doubts about the authenticity of the medals because Ebay do not allow you to add to the description if the auction has less than 12 hours to go.

I have decided not to sell the medals and to avoid 1916 and Service medals in future as there is too much controversy surrounding them, I think I will stick to currant Irish military items although I suppose it will not be long before they are copied. I have put the medals back in the cupboard where I should have left them, maybe when I am dead and gone someone else might discover them and the debate can start all over again.

[ardmhacha]

Hi,

I have just joined the forum to put forward my side of the debate on the 1916 and Service medal pair auction on Ebay. To start with I should let you know I am every-thing-irish.

The explanation of where I got the medals is true, they were found in a house clearance in Dublin. When I found them the original ribbons were covered in black mould and I discarded them.

On Monday morning, the day the auction was due to end, a collector of 1916 medals called to me to pick up some ribbon and was kind enough to bring along his original 1916 medals for comparison with the one I had listed on Ebay. After some examination, detailed measurements and discussion there was a doubt concerning the seam which should run round the edge of the medal where the two halves are joined during manufacture, the seam on the medal in question was intermittent rather than continues as you would expect. This could have been as a result of a good join or it could have been the seam was not recorded in the mould if the medal was a copy. Because of this doubt I decided to pull the auction, I only sell genuine items.

The size of the medal was almost identical to the comparison. I had the ribbons done on the medals twice. The first time it was by a medal collector in Dublin. He did a good enough job but when I bought some WW1 medals from a dealer in England I availed of his 'Professional Medal Mounting' service, as this forum and Ebay forbid the use of profanities I would say the job he did was less than perfect although they do look alright from the front.

As it turned out my attempts to pull the auction failed because Ebay do not let you cancel an auction if it has less than 12 hours to go, I replaced the pictures of the medals with Do Not Bid images and cancelled any bids but as I sort of expected someone went and bid in the last few seconds and I was unable to cancel their bid in time. I was also unable to add to the description to inform potential bidders of my doubts about the authenticity of the medals because Ebay do not allow you to add to the description if the auction has less than 12 hours to go.

I have decided not to sell the medals and to avoid 1916 and Service medals in future as there is too much controversy surrounding them, I think I will stick to currant Irish military items although I suppose it will not be long before they are copied. I have put the medals back in the cupboard where I should have left them, maybe when I am dead and gone someone else might discover them and the debate can start all over again.

[Ed_Haynes]

Brendan,

Many thanks.

Though far FAR outside my collecting field, it takes courage -- personal and financial -- to admit uncertainty over a group such as this and then to struggle with eBay to pull a dubious group. So sad that so few would bother.

These, like so many, too many, items seem to be becoming such a minefield that massive care is required.

Thank you for caring enough to take such care.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[ardmhacha]

Well I find it best to avoid selling in areas in which you are uncertain about, there is always someone out there who covers the field. I would get rid of them to a collector who cannot afford original examples, as long as you tell them there is some doubt hanging over them. Sadly in my opinion, there is no doubt, these are copies that you obtained from someone. Godd luck

[PKeating]

C?ad m?le f?ilte romhat, Brendan! Nice to have a fellow Dub here. It is quite obvious from a persual of your eBay sales that you're a straight fellow. Perhaps I am suspicious and even rather cynical but it sounds as if one of the people to whom you entrusted the medals did you over by perhaps swapping the originals you found in that box back in 1980 for fakes. I know what I'd do if I were you.

PK

[PKeating]

In fact, I'd be fingering the guy who spun you that ludicrous story about splitting the rings to fit new ribbons. Sounds like he fobbed you off with that story when you noticed the rings weren't the same. What's this charmer's name? Is he still around?

PK

[PKeating]

Q: WHY ARE THE RINGS CONNECTING THE RIBBONS TO THE MEDALS SPLIT. I HAVE A NUMBER OF MEDALS NAMED, AND NONE OF THEM RESEMBLE THESE. REGARDS MICK (ARE YOU GOING TO POST THIS QUESTION)24-Mar-07

A: Hi Mick, I have never actually put a new ribbon on a medal but the person who put the new ribbons on these medals told me that in order to attach the ring to the ribbon the medal is removed from the ring and when the ring is attached to the ribbon the medal is then re-attached to the ring so this is why the rings appear split. The answer to your second question is yes; all questions are posted on the auction. Thanks, Brendan.

This is the source, by the way. I'd say that the person who last remounted the medals must have replaced the ones you found in 1980 with these fakes. Hard to prove it for legal purposes, unless you have old, clear photos of the ones found in 1980 but you might get them back if you were to handle this matter Dublin-style.

PK

[Paul L Murphy]

Brendan,

I share PKs suspicions, you do not need to cut the ring in order to remove or replace the ribbon. I should know, I have a considerable number of original 1916 Medals in my collection (I started a long time ago !). I suspect you were the victim of a switch when the ribbons were changed.

Do you have any photos of the earlier group which we can compare ?

Regards,

Paul