EK 1939 Ritterkreuz by C.E. Juncker

[Richard Gordon]

Not shown here before by me but now why not!

This rather mint example, is heavily tarnished and marked 800 L/12.

Some photos to follow:

[Richard Gordon]

Some more details.

[Richard Gordon]

A question on the L/12. From some examples I have seen atributed, L/12 can be found awarded as early as July 1941. This seems to tie in with the creation of the LDO?

At what time would would L/12 marked RK's ceased to have been marked L/12 and when would the '2' marking have come into existence?

Are there differences other than the marking between L/12's and '2' RK's?

I always find this change over confusing so if it could be clarifed for me it would be appreciated.

Rich

[Peter J]

Richard, you're not the only one

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=625

KR

Peter

[Richard Gordon]

Thanks for that link Peter. I too hope more information can be provided.

If I am understanding what has already been written, then L/12 RK could only have been produced in 1941. If the '2' markings did not come into existence until 1944 (I am assumming for RK's but would prefer to be corrected) then '800' only marked Junckers are between the L/12 and the '2' marked RK's.

Would you (or anyone else) agree?

Rich

Edited March 24, 2007 by Richard Gordon

[PKeating]

It's a fair assumption that LDO-marked Ritterkreuze - and EL and ELS - pre-date mid-1941, when the public sale of Germany's highest valour award was formally forbidden. The authorities confiscated all retail pieces, leaving licenced manufacturers with a few samples for their archives, and subsequently awarded them from stock, or supplied them to existing RKT upon request, alongside non-LDO-marked awards. It would seem that the PK marks appeared in 1944 but I do not think that has been absolutely established yet. However, your timeline seems reasonable: 800-marked pieces from 1939-on, L/12-marked pieces for a few months in 1941 with 2-marked pieces appearing later on. Don't forget unmarked pieces, made of silver and iron and all those illicit non-silver and iron crosses.

PK

Edited March 24, 2007 by PKeating

[Richard Gordon]

However, your timeline seems reasonable: 800-marked pieces from 1939-on, L/12-marked pieces for a few months in 1941 with 2-marked pieces appearing later on. Don't forget unmarked pieces, made of silver and iron and all those illicit non-silver and iron crosses.

Actually, I was assuming the timeline was:

Neusilber/non-magnetic -> (L/12 '800') & '800' -> '800' -> ('2' '800')

but '800' could also pre-date L/12 so maybe it is:

Neusilber/non-magnetic -> '800' -> (L/12 '800') or '800' -> '800'-> ('2' '800') ?

Edited March 24, 2007 by Richard Gordon

[PKeating]

Exactly. 800 crosses are probably a constant up to the point at which the firm begins applying the PK number. Some unmarked crosses with silver rims have been observed. These may just be anomalies. Non-silver crosses would not be marked at all as they are early pieces, certainly pre-dating the March 1941 ruling. So, your timeline is fine but the 800 mark could be a constant from 1939 to 1945.

Of course, LDO-marked crosses would have been given to recipients from stock from mid-1941 through to the end of hostilities. However, if one were examining an RK grouping with documents and awards in which the award of the RK pre-dated 1944 and the cross carried a PK number, it would be reasonable to conclude that the cross had been added to the group sometime after the award. There would be a chance that the recipient had applied for a replacement in 1944 or 1945 and been given one from stock that happened to have the PK number hallmark. But there would be a greater chance that someone had enhanced the group much later by adding the cross.

This is based upon the presumption that PK numbers were not applied until 1944, which seems to be a growing trend amongst collectors although I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that these numbers were not applied by firms earlier than 1944.

PK

Edited March 24, 2007 by PKeating

[Richard Gordon]

This is based upon the presumption that PK numbers were not applied until 1944, which seems to be a growing trend amongst collectors although I haven't seen any evidence to indicate that these numbers were not applied by firms earlier than 1944.

This is indeed the grey area. If there was evidence when those codes were applied then it would be incredibly useful!