RN Trade Patches

[JimZ]

[JimZ]

[JimZ]

Steward patch

[JimZ]

[JimZ]

These came off 2 old uniforms that were far too damaged and way beyond repair to even call a uniform.

[JimZ]

Finally .... I also have the following which are not exactly RN patches:

first up a RN Lieutenant Commander (dental) rank slide

[JimZ]

ROYAL MARINE patches and Badges:

[JimZ]

[JimZ]

Para Wings

[JimZ]

That's all for now folks! I should have a stack of pics on other cds but I do not have them handy! Still enough stuff to get this thread started.... Anyone wanna build up on this or throw any more light on these patches... please feel free.

Jim

[Tiger-pie]

The red badges were generally worn by "duty-men", i.e. duty-watch which were a ships/depot working party. The gold bullion would be generally be worn for ceremonial occasions, though in WW2 would be commonly seen on day to day wear with ribbons (if any). Blue and white badges were worn on working dress and summer ceremonial uniforms. The stars indicate levels of proficiency in ones trade, no stars indicating the lowest level, one star intermediate level, two stars indicate fully qualified tradesman. Two crossed hooks with the crown above is Petty Officer.

#33 is Stores-Victuals, we called them "Starvo's" before they were integrated into the one branch of Stores.

#24 is a Coxswains badge.

#23 is Fire Control, for gunnery.

#37 is Signals

#38 is RO, Radio Operator

#41 is CPO cap badge

#42 is a Petty Officers rank badge

#54 is UC, under-water controller

#53 is a Stores patch, OS indicates a Steward.

#22 and others that are similar, are QMG, Quarter-Master Gunner, or in the modern Aussie navy, Bosuns Mate.

#10 is Radio Electronics Technician.

Some are similar to what we still use, some I have never seen before, and must be specific to the Brits though we still use a similar system.

Regards;

Johnsy

[leigh kitchen]

Another Marksman badge - guns got slings.... dunno why!

The Marksmans badge, with slings - the army versions were produced with & without, but after 1874 the "without" became more common.

Of more interest than the sling issue is the actual style of "rifle".

Your one lacks magazines & is actually the style of the armys early pattern versions of this badge, showing a musket or long rifle, thick barrels, the diagonal thread across the butts.

Musketry Regulations 1869 stated to be worn in gold for the best shot in each company of infantry & in worsted for each qualified marksman, by 1881 this was extended to cavalry & Royal Engineers.

In 1909 it reverted to signifying Marksman, in gold for full dress, worsted for service dress.

Worn by Royal Navy & by army on blue uniforms, presumably - I have'nt got a gold & blue one for my army trade & skill at arms badge collection, so if you have'nt flogged it or thrown it away yet throw it this way.

[JimZ]

The red badges were generally worn by "duty-men", i.e. duty-watch which were a ships/depot working party. The gold bullion would be generally be worn for ceremonial occasions, though in WW2 would be commonly seen on day to day wear with ribbons (if any). Blue and white badges were worn on working dress and summer ceremonial uniforms. The stars indicate levels of proficiency in ones trade, no stars indicating the lowest level, one star intermediate level, two stars indicate fully qualified tradesman. Two crossed hooks with the crown above is Petty Officer.

#33 is Stores-Victuals, we called them "Starvo's" before they were integrated into the one branch of Stores.

#24 is a Coxswains badge.

#23 is Fire Control, for gunnery.

#37 is Signals

#38 is RO, Radio Operator

#41 is CPO cap badge

#42 is a Petty Officers rank badge

#54 is UC, under-water controller

#53 is a Stores patch, OS indicates a Steward.

#22 and others that are similar, are QMG, Quarter-Master Gunner, or in the modern Aussie navy, Bosuns Mate.

#10 is Radio Electronics Technician.

Some are similar to what we still use, some I have never seen before, and must be specific to the Brits though we still use a similar system.

Regards;

Johnsy

Hiya Johnsy!

Thanks for the posts. Yes they are indeed British but from what I know the Australian and British systems are rather similar. There are a few of them for which I absolutely had no clue as to what trade they represent.

The problem with these badges is that they are virtually never ending to collect. If you consider the compliment of the larger ships and the hundreds of trades on each vessel, it virtually becomes impossible to collect them all. Mind you, that's the fun part of collecting them!!! But on the other hand, when u end up buying a patch which you cannot research and which nobody seems to know what it relates to, it does start to get frustrating! After all.... is it really a navy patch or not???? Colelcting blind is never good and when you lack the experience and exertise....well..... In any case, thanks for throwing some further light on these badges.... As for the Australian navy, I only had one badge which i posted...... can you confirm that u use the jet configuration instead of the prop..... I am just wondering if the story I posted with that badge holds water.....

Jim

[JimZ]

The Marksmans badge, with slings - the army versions were produced with & without, but after 1874 the "without" became more common.

Of more interest than the sling issue is the actual style of "rifle".

Your one lacks magazines & is actually the style of the armys early pattern versions of this badge, showing a musket or long rifle, thick barrels, the diagonal thread across the butts.

Musketry Regulations 1869 stated to be worn in gold for the best shot in each company of infantry & in worsted for each qualified marksman, by 1881 this was extended to cavalry & Royal Engineers.

In 1909 it reverted to signifying Marksman, in gold for full dress, worsted for service dress.

Worn by Royal Navy & by army on blue uniforms, presumably - I have'nt got a gold & blue one for my army trade & skill at arms badge collection, so if you have'nt flogged it or thrown it away yet throw it this way.

Hi Leigh Kitchen,

Thanks for the info. So not to keep you in suspense..... I had sold all badges with rifles/muskets so I am afraid I cannot throw it your way! I always believed it to be an older variation of the other two crossed rifle badges without slings but with magazines..... of course based on the magazines!!! But I also considered the possibility that these might signify something different. At least that question is resolved.

Like i said in the previous post..... you really need to dig around to find out what some of these badges are or why they are the way they are. Too tiring for me to pursue.... epsecially given the other areas of collecting I was pursuing at the time! What can I say - nothing nicer than being streamlined on one area.... of course you do kick yourself in the behind sometimes when u sell something you had and discover it was something more interesting then first met the eye! But that's the way it goes as well!

Sorry again about that marksman badge!!!

Jim

[Tiger-pie]

Hiya Johnsy!

As for the Australian navy, I only had one badge which i posted...... can you confirm that u use the jet configuration instead of the prop..... I am just wondering if the story I posted with that badge holds water.....

Jim

The jet was used, but once we got rid of our Fleet Air Arm fixed wing aircraft from NAS-Nowra and we changed to helos the badge changed to. Basically the Navy "spent a pound to save a penny" and redesigned our rate* (trade) badges. This caused a great deal of heartache amounst us old heads. I went from having crossed lighting bolts with two stars and the letter "W" at the bottom indicating I was an Electrical Technical Weapons sailor, fully trade trained, to crossed lightning bolts only with a title of Electronics Technician.

Anyway, I would say that there is more than a grain of truth to the story behind the "birdie" badge you own. I can't for the life of me remember what AE meant, I think that they were before my time, I joined in '88. The only rates I remember from the birdies was ATV, ATWL, ATA and MET (weather forecasters). After 1972 the Navy introduced a fully accredited trade and rate badges back then changed to reflect the new system and the level of experiance you had. I suspect that this is a pre '72 badge.

Here are the new "stripped-down" badges.

Regards;

Johnsy

*Note: When talking about Brits, rate indicates rank i.e. rating, whereas in the Aussie navy your rate is your trade and rank badge is just that, your rank. Much like the Brits,,we have a very basic rank structure which consists of:

RCT= Recruit

SMN*= Seaman, the star indicates intial training.

SMN= Seaman

AB= Able Seaman

LS= Leading Seaman

PO= Petty Officer

CPO= Chief Petty Officer

WO= Warrant Officer

Warrant Officer is a fairly new rank to our Navy and was introduced about 20 to 25 years ago to bring us in line with the army and airforce. Chief was the highest previous rank that could be obtained by a sailor.

PS: The following images are from The Gun Plot www.gunplot.net.

The page can be found at: http://www.gunplot.net/rates/navyjobs.html

Edited March 29, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[JimZ]

Again very interesting Johnsy. Whereas some of the badges have remained largely the same like say the PTI, the stoker, the cook and the steward as well as the electrical technician... its interesing to see the gunships instead of planes. I must admit never having seen anything like the "bunting Tos ser's" badge or the "Dorggy's". I have also never seen a Mine Warefare patch!

You know, that gunship on the patch is evolution of the ever changing face of warfare! I mean .......

... from no patch ... ... to prop ... ... to jet ... ... to helo ...

Talk of the evolution of weapons over the past century!!!

Jim

[Tiger-pie]

Some sort of cadet patch plus stripe....

This is an old badge, back when they had different classes of Petty Officer, this was a second class PO. It is a non-existant rank now, I'm not sure when it was discontinued, but I think you will find that this is an old badge.

Regards;

Johnsy

Edited March 30, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[Ardent]

And speaking of sails .... we know talk of harnessing the power of the atom....

Electronic Warfare - passed at Leading Seaman rate (my original branch before I went green)

[JimZ]

Hiya Ardent!!

Could you expand on that a little bit .... what exactly does electronic warfare include?

Jim

[Laurence Strong]

Electronic warfare (EW) is the use of the electromagnetic spectrum to deny its effective use by an adversary while optimizing its use by friendly forces. Electronic warfare has three main components: electronic support, electronic attack, and electronic protection

Electronic support

Electronic support (ES) is the passive use of the electromagnetic spectrum to gain intelligence about other parties on the battlefield in order to find, identify, locate and intercept potential threats or targets.

This intelligence, known as ELINT, might be used directly by fire-control systems for artillery or air strike orders, for mobilization of friendly forces to a specific location or objective on the battlefield, or as the basis of electronic attack or electronic protection actions. Because ES is conducted passively, it can be performed without the enemy ever knowing it. Its counterpart, SIGINT, is continuously performed by most of the world's countries in order to gain intelligence derived from other parties' electronic equipment and tactics.

An older term for ES is electronic support measures (ESM).

Electronic attack

Electronic attack (EA) is the active or passive use of the electromagnetic spectrum to deny its use by an adversary. Active EA includes such activities as jamming, deception, active cancellation, and EMP use.

Passive EA includes such activities as the use of chaff, towed decoys, balloons, radar reflectors, winged decoys, and stealth.

EA operations can be detected by an adversary due to their active transmissions. Many modern EA techniques are considered to be highly classified.

An older term for EA is electronic countermeasures (ECM).

Electronic protection

Electronic protection (EP) includes all activities related to making enemy EA activities less successful by means of protecting friendly personnel, facilities, equipment or objectives. EP can also be implemented to prevent friendly forces from being affected by their own EA.

Active EP includes such activities as technical modifications to radio equipment (such as frequency-hopping spread spectrum).

Passive EP includes such activities as the education of operators (enforcing strict discipline) and modified battlefield tactics or operations.

Older terms for EP include electronic protective measures (EPM) and electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM).

Taken from Wikipedia

Hope this helps

[Simon F]

Right then

Sorry if I have covered other replies to this thread and I am aware that this will be a real splurge of information but please feel free to ask questions to clarify!

Gold badges are for the Number ones uniform (Nos 1's), which is for Parade, etc.

Red badges were for the older Number two's (Nos 2's) which was a work uniform normally used by dabbers (seamen) at harbour stations for special entries in and out of harbour, when you didn't want to get your Nos 1's oiley. Obsolete since about 1987/88.

White badges are for the Number eights (No 8's) which is the blue general use uniform for day to day work, they were generally printed.

If they were embroidered blue on white they were for tropical uniform or Number sixes (No 6's) or the ice cream suit.

All branch badges for general uniform are now embroidered.

#4 Is specifically a Seacat aimers badge for the Number 1 uniform, these small specialist badges are worn on the lower sleeve of the Number ones or twos uniform. Seacat/Seaslug, etc have all been replaced by Seawolf as the point weapons system on all frigates and destroyers.

#14 Is Leading Radio Operator (General) or LRO(G) in the old system. Radio Operators came as "T's" or "G's". T's are tactical communications, flag waving, etc. G's were the guys that operated the kit and sent the morse, etc. It is all under one house now, the lads and lasses are cross trained.

#15 Is a newer Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic or LMEM or Stokers for the number 1 uniform. I say newer as they used to have a letter "L" or "M" to denote specialised in Electrical or Mechanical. These again have been lumped under one hat.

#16 is the branch badge for the Chief Bosun's Mate or Buffer, he is usually a Petty Officer in rank (as this is) on warships, apart from bigger units, i.e carriers where he will be a Chief Petty Officer. These guys look after everything Seamanship from ropes and wires to conducting all major seamanship evolutions such as Replenishment at Sea (RAS).

#18 is for a Leading Seaman (Electronic Warfare) LS(EW) under the old Operations Department system, prior to the implementation of the Warfare branch in 1994. You were titled as either a Junior Seaman/Seaman Able Seaman or Leading Seaman because seamanship was your first trade and your sub specialisation was either Radar/Sonar/Electronic Warfare/Missileman.

#19 is for a Petty Officer (Electronic Warfare) PO(EW) old OPS system.

#24 is correctly a Submarine Coxswains badge. These guys are in charge of routines/discipline, etc on boats. Submarines are referred to as boats, ships are ships

#37 is an old Chief Comunications Yeomans (CY) badge. Chiefs wear smaller badges on their collars of their Number ones/twos whereas Petty Officers wear the larger badges on their sleeves. Also CPO's dont wear good conduct stripes only 3 buttons around the cuff. Also Chiefs wear the white branch badges on the left chest of the general work kit.

#38 Is a Radio Signalmans badge (RS) who is a Petty Officer.

#40 is an Officers cap badge.

#41 is a Chief Petty Officers cap badge.

#42 is a current Petty Officers badge worn on Number ones. Leading Hands wear one anchor and Petty Officers two. The Anchor is a Killick anchor, Leading hands are sometime reffered to as Killicks or Hooky.

#43 Is a crown worn by members of the regulating branch (Naval Police) and is worn by Petty Officers or Regulating Petty Officers (RPO) as they are known, or Leading Regulators. It is worn on the sleeve of the jumper (woolly Pully) or on the Number ones uniform where the branch badge would go.

#46 Is an old Weapons Engineering Mechanics badge.

#47 Is the Navigators Yeomans patch which would have been worn on the sleeve of the Number twos uniform. He would have been either a Able Seaman (Radar) AB(R ) or A Leading Seaman (Radar) LS(R ) under the old system and he would have had the cushy number of helping out the Navigator with his charts. No duties (blue card) and no watches to keep at sea (all night in every night the lucky bugger). The job has now been taken over by the EW's in the newer system.

#49 Is an old Seaman (Radar) S(R ) badge that was phased out in the early eighties.

#50 Is an old Able Seaman (Radar) AB(R ) badge.

#51 Is for a Petty Officers Number two's uniform.

#52 Is a current Leading Hands anchor for the Number ones uniform.

#54 I s a very old Leading Seaman (Sonar) LS(S) badge the C stood for controller, better known as TAS Apes. TAS was the old acronym for Torpedo Anti Submarine and Ape because it was reckoned that even a monkey could do the job. I should know being a Chief TAS

Edited April 1, 2007 by Simon F

[Ardent]

Hiya Ardent!!

Could you expand on that a little bit .... what exactly does electronic warfare include?

Jim

ok - Electronic Warfare is the detection, analasys and destruction of enemy use of the EM spectrum - at its most basic level it's receiving an enemy's radar transmissions at up to twice their receiving range (if they have a range of 50 miles you know about them 50 miles before they know you're there) and identifying who/what they are and taking appropriate countermeasures or counter-countermeasures (jamming)

can't tell you much more or I'd have to kill you after

[Ardent]

Electronic warfare (EW) is the use of the electromagnetic spectrum to deny its effective use by an adversary while optimizing its use by friendly forces. Electronic warfare has three main components: electronic support, electronic attack, and electronic protection

Electronic support

Electronic support (ES) is the passive use of the electromagnetic spectrum to gain intelligence about other parties on the battlefield in order to find, identify, locate and intercept potential threats or targets.

This intelligence, known as ELINT, might be used directly by fire-control systems for artillery or air strike orders, for mobilization of friendly forces to a specific location or objective on the battlefield, or as the basis of electronic attack or electronic protection actions. Because ES is conducted passively, it can be performed without the enemy ever knowing it. Its counterpart, SIGINT, is continuously performed by most of the world's countries in order to gain intelligence derived from other parties' electronic equipment and tactics.

An older term for ES is electronic support measures (ESM).

Electronic attack

Electronic attack (EA) is the active or passive use of the electromagnetic spectrum to deny its use by an adversary. Active EA includes such activities as jamming, deception, active cancellation, and EMP use.

Passive EA includes such activities as the use of chaff, towed decoys, balloons, radar reflectors, winged decoys, and stealth.

EA operations can be detected by an adversary due to their active transmissions. Many modern EA techniques are considered to be highly classified.

An older term for EA is electronic countermeasures (ECM).

Electronic protection

Electronic protection (EP) includes all activities related to making enemy EA activities less successful by means of protecting friendly personnel, facilities, equipment or objectives. EP can also be implemented to prevent friendly forces from being affected by their own EA.

Active EP includes such activities as technical modifications to radio equipment (such as frequency-hopping spread spectrum).

Passive EP includes such activities as the education of operators (enforcing strict discipline) and modified battlefield tactics or operations.

Older terms for EP include electronic protective measures (EPM) and electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM).

Taken from Wikipedia

Hope this helps

unfortunately Wikipedia is grossly mis-informed by people who know "something" of the subject

this extract is sort of accurate but lacks finese

[JimZ]

Hiya guys! Thanks for the information especially Simon. You filled in quite a few grey areas.... especially "#54 Leading Seaman (Sonar) LS(S) badge" I can assure you that nobofy before ever could give me any info about it and the best hint was that it was some submariners badge! So cheers for that!

It is a pity that I had sold many of these off before I was a member of the forum. It would have been nicer to hold them knowing exactly what they were! But at least I still get some sort of closure as a result of these posts!

I guess there are quite a few RN guys out there and yet, the RN threads seem to be quite slow when there is probably so much info just waiting to be posted out there.....

Jim

Edited April 2, 2007 by JimZ

[Jim Maclean]

#15 Is a newer Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic or LMEM or Stokers for the number 1 uniform. I say newer as they used to have a letter "L" or "M" to denote specialised in Electrical or Mechanical. These again have been lumped under one hat.

Not entirely correct young shaver , "L" & "M" weren't introduced until the 80s when the old Ordnance Electrical Mechanics became MEM(L) and the Marine Engineering Mechanics became MEM(M). This badge could quite easily be pre 1980. The stars above and below are a nightmare to sort out over the decades, this particular badge when I was in could be worn by a MEM1(AMC), which meant auxiliary machinery watchkeeper, ie. generators, evaporators etc., always worn by an LMEM and could also have been worn by a newly promoted POMEM.

Thank goodness as a clanky tiff I didn't have to worry about branch badges. I could always remember what I had to do without looking at my sleeve in the morning.

The marksman badges are also strange, at present I believe there is only one which is crossed rifles with a crown above, don't know about slings, must check on that. My grandfather qualified as a 1st class marksman and wore crossed rifles with slings and a star above, 2nd class was crossed rifles and 3rd class was a horizontal rifle. As to a RN sniper badge I think they're even more long range than the RA, probably an army or RM badge.