British Webbing set

[JimZ]

I am attaching the following webbing set for your attention. It is British as issued in Malta plus some other bits and pieces that came along over the years. Interestingly the set (which feels quite dusty) has remains of what is known as Malta blanco..... This consists of a mixture of specific white/light grey clay which is mixed with water to form a very fine sludge. When painted on the webbing this dries and turns white. The set must have been blancoed some time at the end of the war or just after it as it does not show any dirt on it and has been left to lie there. I had obtained it many years back and serviced its fitings which were in dire need of cleaning. The set, like many others seems to have a variety of stamps and marks, some of which are illegible due to age. I have blacked out the background to clearly show the items.....

[JimZ]

[JimZ]

Set consists of 2 ammo pouches, 1 pistol holster, 1 magazine holder (?), 2 bottles - full sleeve and skeleton holder, 2 braces for wearing webbing with no pouches, 1 knapsack with left and right straps, 2 puttees, 1 bayonet frog, 1 holder small pouch for tools (?), 1 bren gun barrel holder case (?), 1 belt and two cross over brace straps.

I am interested primarily in finding out more about the (?) items. Sadly I cannot post closer details as again, items are currently in another country and this pic is off my database. I would gladly do so however in future.

Any comments of course are greatly appreciated.

Jim

[leigh kitchen]

Webbing's not my field, but this stuff would look great with one of those Malta cammo'd helmets.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Jimz,

we used this style of webbing in the Irish Army in 1976, before moving on to the 1958 Pattern, then the reserve Forces got lumped with it, looking at your set, the Ammo pouches seem to be two different sizes.

What I dont see is the small ammo pouch for Webly rounds, and the bino case both in webbing as well.

Also the pick-axe carrier is not included in your set. And a set of expanders to accomodate a larger pack.

Kevin in Deva.

[Pylon1357]

Hey Jim, to me this set appears to be put together by a collector to show the different pieces. Kevin is correct that the two pouches appear to be different sizes, the smaller one being a MkII pouch and the slightly larger being a MkIII.

The little pouch for tools as you described it appears to be a Bren wallet, used for carrying extra bits and pieces for the Bren Gun, along with the tools. It is designed to be carried either over the shoulder, or commonly in the Spare barrel carrier, which is in your photo, just above the web belt. The wallet fits nicely into the larger pocket of the carrier.

Nice grouping of webbing. Any specific quetsions, ask away.

[JimZ]

Webbing's not my field, but this stuff would look great with one of those Malta cammo'd helmets.

Got one! I had it once mounted on the old BDU and with Malta Cammo helmet! I promise to post it next time I am near!

Jim

[JimZ]

Hallo Jimz,

we used this style of webbing in the Irish Army in 1976, before moving on to the 1958 Pattern, then the reserve Forces got lumped with it, looking at your set, the Ammo pouches seem to be two different sizes.

What I dont see is the small ammo pouch for Webly rounds, and the bino case both in webbing as well.

Also the pick-axe carrier is not included in your set. And a set of expanders to accomodate a larger pack.

Kevin in Deva.

Hi Kev,

I can confirm that the ammo pouches are not different sizes but probably partly my fault when taking the photo, as I probably was too lazy to close both of them. The one on the left is very evidently not closed properly!!

Confirmed no pick-axe carrier and no other pouches. Actually is the pick axe referred to as the entrenching tool? If so any one got pics of that pls? I have yet to see one up close and personal!

There are 18 years between 58 and 76!! Must have been a relief to upgrade as this webbing is not the most comfy around especially if and when fully loaded!

Jim

Edited April 2, 2007 by JimZ

[JimZ]

Hey Jim, to me this set appears to be put together by a collector to show the different pieces. Kevin is correct that the two pouches appear to be different sizes, the smaller one being a MkII pouch and the slightly larger being a MkIII.

The little pouch for tools as you described it appears to be a Bren wallet, used for carrying extra bits and pieces for the Bren Gun, along with the tools. It is designed to be carried either over the shoulder, or commonly in the Spare barrel carrier, which is in your photo, just above the web belt. The wallet fits nicely into the larger pocket of the carrier.

Nice grouping of webbing. Any specific quetsions, ask away.

Heyya Pylon 1357!

My comments about the pouch sizes in the previous post... question is are they MKII or MKIII now!!

Many thanks for your explanation about the Bren Wallet as well as well as the carrier. I was never completely sure.

Now as for the set being put together what can I say - I doubt that the guy was issued with 2 bottles..... and the revolver pouch probably belonged to an officer who would be carrying less stuff on him.....! As for the Bren wallet and carrier ...... I would again that those were also added on. There is also a small mag holder (I think) under the holster which probably was also added on. As for the rest...fairly standard stuff.

Jim

[Tony]

Jim,

Are the bottles the old blue enamel type or the green ones? If blue, do they have the fitting to stop the lid from going missing or not?

We used bits of 37 Pat. webbing in training but I imagine it was shipped of to the Irish army afterwards ( Kev).

Tony

[JimZ]

Jim,

Are the bottles the old blue enamel type or the green ones? If blue, do they have the fitting to stop the lid from going missing or not?

We used bits of 37 Pat. webbing in training but I imagine it was shipped of to the Irish army afterwards ( Kev).

Tony

Hi Tony!

You are testing my memory here! I believe the one in the skeleton holder to be green inside but am not sure about the one in the sleeve holder. I'll have to check up on that!

Incidentally, can anyone indicate whether the bottle holders themselves are contemporary or whether one is older than the other. I always believed that the sleeved one was older.... but that is just based on conjecture.

Jim

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo JimZ

Another point of interest is some types of these webbing pouches and wallets can be found with press-stud fastenings the other with buckle-type fastenings.

In recruit training we had to scrub and re-blanco the webbing as well as shine all the brass bits nightly ready for next mornings parade and inspection

Any one failing the inspection got drill with full-pack and to jog around the square with the rifle held over the head of course you had to stop and salute any officer who happened to be passing as well

Kevin in Deva

[JimZ]

Yep, these are press stud fastenings in fact! Very uncomfortable for fastening a pouch that is not fully packed! On the other hand, I actually had an old run down set that I used to use for Scout activities that had the buckle fastenings....if you can call them buckles! And yet the press stud ones always seemed to close better IMHO!!

Again... did one preceed the other or were both fastenings contemporary?

What sort of blanco did you use? The one used on Maltese sets as this one seems to have been a very particular home made brew!!!

I wonder how you could clean the press studs without mucking up the remaining webbing. Did you use those brass plates with slots and grooves in them.... or was it simply a case of experience? Ouch for those who failed inspection!!!!

Jim

Edited April 2, 2007 by JimZ

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo JimZ

As far as I can recall we got matching sets, i.e. either it was all press studs or all "buckle" type, but I have seen Reserve soldiers being issued mis-matched sets.

We used a commercial Blanco of a light-green colour, we had to buy it and the "Brasso" in the Barrack Canteen.

And we used the famous "Button-Stick" to help clean around the brass fittings, but no matter how well it was done some poor bugger failed and had to leg it around the "Square".

Irish Army Button Stick:

Kevin in Deva

Edited April 2, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Pylon1357]

IIRC the later MkIII pouches from 44 onward used the 'buckle' type quich release fastener, where as the earlier ones were press stud. It would be very nice to have a few close ups of the pouches both front, back and inside the lid.

The MkIII pouch is slightly longer than the MkII. Hopefully someone will have the measurements at hand I would have to dig out my sets and measue them. But I think the MkI was 8 1/2 inches and MkIII was 9 inches in length.

[JimZ]

Hallo JimZ

As far as I can recall we got matching sets, i.e. either it was all press studs or all "buckle" type, but I have seen Reserve soldiers being issued mis-matched sets.

We used a commercial Blanco of a light-green colour, we had to buy it and the "Brasso" in the Barrack Canteen.

And we used the famous "Button-Stick" to help clean around the brass fittings, but no matter how well it was done some poor bugger failed and had to leg it around the "Square".

Irish Army Button Stick:

Kevin in Deva

Thanks Kev.

I had a few button sticks and have seen a few more - but never ones with a design on it. Is that design a badge or anything in particular?

Jim :cheers

[JimZ]

IIRC the later MkIII pouches from 44 onward used the 'buckle' type quich release fastener, where as the earlier ones were press stud. It would be very nice to have a few close ups of the pouches both front, back and inside the lid.

The MkIII pouch is slightly longer than the MkII. Hopefully someone will have the measurements at hand I would have to dig out my sets and measue them. But I think the MkI was 8 1/2 inches and MkIII was 9 inches in length.

Hi Pylon 1357,

I will not be able to measure them any time before May.... but when the time comes I'll do that and post better pics as well as measurements!

Jim

[Kev in Deva]

Thanks Kev.

Is that design a badge or anything in particular?

Jim :cheers

The insignia is for the Irish Defence Forces, the design is also used as the Irish Cap-badge.

Kevin in Deva

Edited April 3, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[JimZ]

FF being freedom fighters? ;-) Joking aside. This is the first button stick I have come across with insigna on it. I have seen these by the dozen especially in markets hanging from brass seller stalls as well as sellers of militaria antiques but I must admit this is the first I have ever seen like that!

Was it common to have them embossed ?

Jim

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Jim

Basically the Army crest, was originally designed in 1913 for the Irish Volunteer's by Profesor Eoin MacNeill, and is still used in a modified form as capbadges, and embroided on the army cloth rank badges for Company-Sergeant.

"F.F." stands for "Fianna Fail" - the first word is a ancient Gaelic term for an Army, the second word means Destiny.

(It is also used as a Irish Political Party name going back to the formation of the Republic of Ireland.)

The words around the belt in the center "Oglaig na H-Eireann" is translated to "Soldiers of Ireland".

Sorry to say I dont have the correct Irish Fonts to render the words in their true form

With regards the Button stick with the crest, these are very scarce to find, (Even I dont have one in my possession) like most brass articles in the army, spent bullet cases, artillery cases, brass fixings off web-belts etc... etc.. all were supposed to be submited for re-cycling, each unit sending in a "Brass" return each month to Command Head-quarters.

Kevin in Deva

[JimZ]

Very interesting Kev!

Thanks for taking the time to fill me in

Jim

[leigh kitchen]

Any idea if the button stick, which looks like a Brit pattern, would have had the insignia added after delivery as it were, or impressed at the time of manufacture?

I've never seen a button stick with anything other than unit or individual impressed number, rank, name etc on it.

They are horrible things really - when I joined my battalion in Gibralter in 1973, one of the guys in my section was stuck on a charge during an OC's inspection - we had anodised aluminium insignia of course, but he had been issued a button stick (the same way that people like me were issued a collar stud although we were issued with No. 2 Shirts that had attached collars & thus no need of a collar stud) - the OC asked if he'd ever used his button stick, he said "No sir", so he got "stuck on" on the basis that you've been issued a piece of kit so you should use it.............