very interesting navy ribbon bar...

[HeikoGrusdat]

look what I have found.... in my eyes a great navy ribbon bar, very interesting with the two orange-white ribbons and a maker from Kiel!!! Please let me know your opinions on the two RAO/AE ribbons and the crown order ribbon.... what are the possibilities we have here?

greetings

Heiko

[HeikoGrusdat]

and of course the reverse...

[webr55]

...looks like an engineer-type... stand by...

[Paul C]

An interesting bar which has seen alot of wear. The pin is actually bent in a manner that indicates gravity has taken its toll. I agree a Navy engineer type with China service, actual or stay at home. I wonder why to dark blue ribbons at the end. Possible 25 years Naval long service and than civilian long service. Any other explainations?

[Guest Rick Research]

Hmm. I'd guess a Deck Officer or former petty officer, with an Allgemeine Ehrenzeichen and a Red Eagle Order Medal and Crown Order Medal. The two blue long services suggest post October 1936 confusion with the "two Wehrmacht long services will be worn" regulation. MANY old Imperial "old Wehrmacht" veterans decided that meant THEY could wear an XXV with an XV, or an XV with an IX or whatever they felt like, just like the "new Wehrmacht" guys.

Try the Deckoffiziere section of the 1914 Navy Rank List for the two Order medals with an General Decoration.

[HeikoGrusdat]

this was my thinking too.... general honour decoration and the two order medals.... I will check the navy list tonight in bed

[HeikoGrusdat]

Back again..... I don`t have a 1914 navy rank list, only 1916... there is NO ONE with the combination RAOmedal + KOmedal + AE........

I have only ONE man with the two order medals but no AE : Feuerwerks-Oberleutnant Sewald - entered 31.5.99 - could match with China...

just a thought....: could it be possible that the first ribbons ARE the orders RAO4 and KO4 and the second orange/white ribbon is a AE???? is this possible?

too many questions....

[Paul C]

From a look in the 1918 RL, I don't think a RAO+PCO and AE go together. I thought maybe a RAO+PCO and HH but the HH is after the Hindenburg. It is a tough call.

[Guest Rick Research]

There are quite a few Deckoffiziere in 1914 who COULD have had this combination. Most also had an assortment of "enemy" awards from peacetime ships' visits that by the late 1930s would probably have been worn again--

maybe there was a second row of ribbons.

The problem is that ordinary sailors in 1900 and even Deck Officers in 1914 are totally inviosible as to finding them for colonial campaigns. And there is also no way to tell what awards they got in the World War.

But I'm fairly sure now from the 1914 Navy Rank List that this was a Deck Officer or Senior Petty Officer's group, with the "Prussian trio" of peacetime medals.

[Ulsterman]

Back again..... I don`t have a 1914 navy rank list, only 1916... there is NO ONE with the combination RAOmedal + KOmedal + AE........

I have only ONE man with the two order medals but no AE : Feuerwerks-Oberleutnant Sewald - entered 31.5.99 - could match with China...

just a thought....: could it be possible that the first ribbons ARE the orders RAO4 and KO4 and the second orange/white ribbon is a AE???? is this possible?

too many questions....

That's my guess-remember what came BEFORE the HKx according to the 1939 regs-and what came after. Rick posted these a while back from an old reprinted catalogue.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Ulsterman

[HeikoGrusdat]

The problem is that ordinary sailors in 1900 and even Deck Officers in 1914 are totally inviosible as to finding them for colonial campaigns. And there is also no way to tell what awards they got in the World War.

right Rick, thats why I love the post war rank lists with all ww1 awards, colonial awards, wound badges ....in it.

[Paul C]

To my understanding, the post 1918 army or navy ranklists do not have any kolonial, SWA or China awards (campaign medals). They would of course list a Prussian Crown Order with swords awarded in say 1905 to an officer serving in SWA. If I am incorrect on this someone please correct me.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Paul,

for example.... I have a 1928 navy rank list that lists all colonial awards, china medal, dswa medal as well as the colonial medal 1912

this one is great but many of the interesting officers were 1928 out of service so it is a very limited help....

Heiko

[webr55]

To my understanding, the post 1918 army or navy ranklists do not have any kolonial, SWA or China awards (campaign medals). They would of course list a Prussian Crown Order with swords awarded in say 1905 to an officer serving in SWA. If I am incorrect on this someone please correct me.

Not quite. The 1924 Navy RL does not yet list Colonial, SWA and China, but the 1932 one DOES.

[webr55]

cross-posting!

Another point: I could not find ANY Deckoffizier in the 1914 RL with RAO medal, KO medal AND AllgEhrenzeichen who was NOT in service before 1897. This is a tricky case.

[Guest Rick Research]

That's why I think there was originally a second row of ribbons. Possibly that had nothing German BUT the 1897 medal on it and the rest were foreign awards. If this was one of the Warrant Officers with three peacetime foreign awards, a Centenary, and then say two Turkish wartime ribbons-- that would make 6 for a lower row of ribbons, or he could have stretched that out with the Austrian, Bulgarian, and Hungarian WW1 Commemorative medals as well.

[HeikoGrusdat]

ok Rick, then I will search again for the guys WITH 1897 medal and the three medals we think he had......let`s see how many there will be.

[Guest Rick Research]

I find 8 "Prussian trios" in the 1914 Deckoffiziere:

Westpfahlen on page 3 (1 foreign award)

Hauck page 8 (4 foreign awards)

Voigt, Albert page 9 ( 1 foreign)

Trder, Franz page 16 (3 foreign)

Raetz page 19 (3 foreign and no 1897 )

Bedorf page 4 (2 foreign)

Gerstenkorn page 40 (1 foreign)

and

Mader page 59 (no foreign awards)

And of course no way to ever know if the wearer had been a senior Petty Officer but not a Deck Officer.

But with these 8 above as the possible suspects, only 1 having no 1897 and only 1 having no foreign peacetuime awards, the other 6 out of 8 suggest a whole second row would have been likely.

In short, this is an incredibly rare combination, but one which it is not possible to research because the suspects were not officers. I agree that it must be a naval group, not just from the maker's tag, but from the "Prussian trio" itself. The Kaiser favored the navy over the army, and we never see this sort of army senior NCO bar when there would have been far greater numbers eligible. That's because, I think, only the navy actually DID get as many decorations.