Miniature Chain

[Rod]

Gentlemen!!

At the risk of testing your patience with me... I need help!!!

I just received this mini label chain. I would greatly like to know what these individually medals are and what sort of a person wore it and during what period of time.

I have gone over every item with a 10X loupe and have tried to copy the following. I know I have done a very poor job of it, but I hope (pray too) that it gives you enough information to give me an idea of what these babies are. There are fourteen of them .... sigh .... my eyes are sooooo tired right now.

Starting from the "button":

1. Silver - Obverse ? Carolvs D. G. Imp.A vst. Rex boh.etc.et rex apost.hvng.

Reverse ? fortitvdini

2. same as 1. BUT in bronze.

3. Bronze cross ? Obverse ? (2 crowns) G ? vitem et sangvinem ? mdcccxv1 Reverse ? grati ? princeps et patria ? carolus impet rex

4. Gold ? Obverse ? franc. Ios.1.dg.imp.avstst.rex boh.ftc.et rex ap.hvng.

Reverse - signum memoriae

5. Gold ? Obverse ? franz joseph1 kaiser osterriech konig v. bohmen etc. apost. Konig v. ungara * Reverse ? 2. December 1873

6. Gold ? Obverse ? fur osterreich Reverse ? 1914- 1918

7. Gold ? Reverse - das land tirol den verteidigern des vaterland 1914- 1918

8. Silver ? Reverse ? pro deo et patria1914 ?1918

9. Gold ? Reverse 1915-1918

10. Enameled cross ? Obverse - repubctque f ancaies 1870 green wreath around center and on jump ring. Reverse ? honneur et patrie with crossed french? Flags red, white and blue horizontal strips.

11. Enameled cross ? blue and white maltese cross with star in the center ..green wreath on jump ring. Obverse and reverse identical.

12. Silver ? Obverse - looks like a roman mythology guy with sword being hugged by the really sexy gal!! Reverse ? reconnaissance francaise

13. Gold enameled cross with crown..Obverse ? gold lion in center - cunion rait l rorce

14. Bronze ? looks like Hindenburg cross with swords ? Obverse 1914 -1918

All comments and information would be gratefully appreciated.

Rod

[Jacky]

I'm not really into austrian ODM, but will try to give the first shot.

1

2

3 Karls truppen cross (canon cross)

4 Signum Memoriae medal

5

6 Austria recommemorative medal for the great war

7 Tirol recommemorative medal for the great war

8 Hungaria Recommemorative medal for the great war

9 recommemorative medal for the great war

10 Legion d'honneur same applies to this one as with the order of the black star of benin (see below)

11 Order of the black star of benin, can't make out the colour, if it's silver then it's the chevalier (knight) otherwise, if gold the officers grade

12

13 officer of the order of leopold II belgium

14 This is indeed the hindenburg cross with swords for combattants.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Jacky

[Kev in Deva]

1. & 2 are the Carol / Karl Bravery Medals in Bronze and Silver.

5 is the General Campaign Medal 1873.

Kevin in Deva

Edited May 14, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Rod]

Jacky,

Thanks so very much!!!

I recognized the "Franz Joseph" but I thought since there appeared to be some medals from other countries I did not know which forum to post under.

I am hoping others will comment too.

Now that I know some order names to lookup perhaps it will shed more light on the kind of person this was.

Again I thank you,

Rod

[Kev in Deva]

Rod,

can you post a better picture of the silver French medal near the end of the chain.

Not sure how he got awards from: France and Belgium, post ww1??

Kevin in Deva

[Guest Rick Research]

12 is the French lifesaving medal.

Unfortunately, as seems to be the case with 98% of miniature chains, this is simply a PARTS bar. The combination to what "reads" as an ancient active duty non-career Austrian military in December 1898/yet still "other rank" in 1917-18 simply could NEVER have received all that French and Belgian colonial/officer stuff on the end.

It is only worth what ever the individual parts add out to.

Remember: 98 out of 100 chains are going to be Frankensteins.

[Rod]

Ohhh well..............

The seller referred to it as belonging to a "diplomat". I did not want to give this information as I did not want to influence anyone's statement.

But... in any event it is pretty and the minis (with the exception of the french lifesaving award... ugh)

are well made as is the chain.

Thanks guys!! I really do appreciate your help.

Rod

[Rod]

Hello ,

I am sure many of you have watched my floundering around with chains and minis. See the Austro Hungary forum for my experience with an FJ chain and minis which also appears to be a "frankenstein".

I would greatly appreciate contact with someone who collects chains and minis to get better direction and advice.

Rod

Edited May 14, 2007 by Rod

[Rod]

I am hesitant to comment further.. but I must say this:

The combination of german (austrian) with the french colonial, I do agree that on the surface this combination does not make sense.... BUT if I wanted to mislead someone ... if I knew enough to place the awards in a logical manner... would I not then be a little smarter if my intent was to mislead?

It does not make sense to me.

Granted I do have a financial interest in my chain! Perhaps I do not appreciate how DUMB some may be. BUT even with my extremely limited knowledge in this area, I am sure I would be much more shrewed.

My statement is retorical and not asking for a reply.

Rod

Edited May 20, 2007 by Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

These are always twiddled with by people who neither know nor care what any of the "things" are, simply assuming if 4 wuzzits are good... 26 wuzzits are "better."

They're not smart enough to deceive. Their intention is not to consciously deceive. They simply don't CARE. It seems incredible to us, but apparently huge numbers of people assume that awards are just slapped on willy-nilly and do not mean or signify anything.

I've also seen these--literally-- being sold as "charm bracelets."

My suspicion is that from time to time, somebody comes across unused old outfitter stock and simply slaps on whatever will fit.

The things that tend to be "at hand" in such cases are the oddball items that never sold--which is why they are lying around after all these years-- and surplus common stock.

On the other hand, check out THIS thread--

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18485

There you have quote-unquote Professional Dealers whose level of "expertise" is so Manionesque that not one of them noticed (or moe to the point cared) that what they are SAYING something is, does not MATCH what that person had.

Doesn't matter.

Some nouveau riche Russian will buy it for their Meaningless Trophies Room, NQA.

Makes no difference eCrap seller or Snooty Tooty "Professional" seller---

somebody BUYS it... no longer their problem. Business Motto: "Who Cares? It Sells."

My best advice is the same advice I've ever given anybody ever bitten by the chain bug:

Don't buy unless it coems as part of a matching GROUP.

[Wild Card]

Hi Rod,

Although I have had an interest in miniatures for over thirty years , I can hardly claim to be an expert on the subject; but I would like to pass on a couple of thoughts beyond the information in Rick?s excellent presentation in post #10 - which, I might add, should be required reading for anyone interested in this subject.

First, I feel that collecting miniatures has to be approached with a whole different mindset from what one has with regard to full sized decorations. Miniatures do not have the same official status as their big brothers; therefore a ?genuine? miniature has to be judged by a different standard. For example, during the period when Siebrecht was the official house jeweler for Brunswick (1880-1912), perhaps half a dozen jewelers were making miniatures of Henry the Lion pieces; any of which should be considered legitimate.

With regard to groups, chains, whatever you wish to call them, Rick covers the problems very well. Two points here. First, when looking at a miniature group, try to visualize it as a full sized group. One common problem which does come into play here is the class of an order. For instance, what appears to be a Prussian KO 3rd class could be a 2nd, or even 1st, class award which would not appear on the full sized bar. Second point. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Evil One, I will state that I do sense, but cannot prove, that some miniature groups, while legitimate, do not always conform to official mounting precedence; but let?s be honest, this happens with legitimate full sized groups as well, doesn't it?

So why do I collect them? Mainly for two reasons. First, short of calling them works of art, I find some to be examples of workmanship that is truly amazing; sometimes even with lower grade, relatively common, decorations. For instance, miniatures of the 1914 EK run the gamut from amazing to amazingly bad. The second reason is that miniatures afford us (me at least) to own a legitimate relative to a full sized piece that I probably will never own. I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Rod]

Hi Rick and Wild Card!

Many thanks for your replies. My last posting was done with frustration , not expecting responses ... but I am very glad both of you did.

The chain was an "impulse" purchase ( you would think I would know better ).... gee it looks great ... oh well, it is all part of the cost of an education. Actually, I am still glad to include it with my other "finds" as I do feel satisfied in that I have correct knowledge thanks to both of you of what it really is (if that makes any sense).

Rod

Edited May 21, 2007 by Rod