Netherlands Dutch medalbar without medals / foreign Ribbons

[Herr General]

Who can help me to fill in the blanks

1 Knight in the Order of the Dutch Lion

2 House order of Oranje Nassau - Grade could be knight 1st classe, knight 2nd classe, cross of merit or silver or bronze medal.

3 Ascension medal of her majesty Queen Beatrix - 1980

4 Order of the golden palm of Suriname

5 Officer in the Order of Francisco de Miranda of Venezuela

6 Knight in the Order of Andres Bello of Venezuela

Edited May 20, 2007 by Herr General

[Roeland]

number 5: perhaps a medal for a certain amount of years in service?

wouldn't know the other though, nice bar.

[Herr General]

Hi Roeland, I think that this is a Royal Household group rather then a Military group. I think that everything after the Ascension medal is foreign.

[922F]

Going with Suriname's Golden Palm as correct which seems very possible, (for a South American locale) the Yellow with rosette is likely the Venezulean Francisco Mirinda Order officer. Blue & White could be Venezuela's Andreas Bello Order aka Order of the Star--Is that ribbon damage or a removed rosette? Replacing the Venezuelan awards would not be difficult! N.B. I recall a couple of visits (1970s-90s) to Suriname by Dutch Queens with stops in Venezuela and maybe Guyana & Panama???

[Herr General]

Thanks for your reaction! Great information. I think you are right about these last two orders. I'm trying to find more info about them now. I don't think that there was a officers rozette on the last ribbon.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Herr General

[922F]

Thanks for your reaction! Great information. I think you are right about these last two orders. I'm trying to find more info about them now. I don't think that there was a officers rozette on the last ribbon.

You are certainly welcome! The OMSA data base (among others) has illustrations of the Venezuelan awards. I don't know if Megan has illustrated them. Believe both are in Werlich; only Mirinda is in the curiously uneven Stair Sainty WOKM. Mirinda is {very loosely} for diplomatic merit and Bello for Civil merit. I was in Paramirabo some years ago and met a long time Dutch resident who had been awarded the Golden Palm. I wrote a Medal Collector article about his award document. The useful information in this context was that he he received an Orange Nassau knight during Queen Juliana's visit.

Edited May 21, 2007 by 922F

[Herr General]

An other option for the last ribbon is Spain: Order of Civil Merit!

[922F]

Hello, Yes, I considered the Spanish Civil Merit possibility. However, the ribbon's central white stripe appears too narrow. Admittedly, there is not much difference between the white stripe's width of these two ribbons. Originally the Bello ribbon was exactly the same as the Spanish Civil Merit. Bello is basically for civil humanitarian, educational, diplomatic, poetic, and legal merit, some of the same categories as the Spanish Order, so these colors' proportions led to confusion. As the newer award, the Bello ribbon "evolved" to a narrower white stripe. Either Bob Werlich or Bob Elliot reported the Bello decorations were designed in Madrid so the Spanish Civil Merit ribbon was at hand. For a while the OMSA ribbon bank had the same ribbon for both. When the ex-Meyer stock was available, I think John got some Bello ribbon (with the somewhat narrower white stripe) for the ribbon bank.

Must add that Mirinda is also awarded for the same general services as Bello but also includes scientific achievements. l see Mirinda more often in diplomatic circles though. I'm not sure whether Mirinda or Bello are higher ranking.

Since the bar has Suriname and for sure Venezuela, it suggests South America.

All things considered, though, it may be possible that the last ribbon is for a Spanish Civil Merit Order--rarely those are given as "diplomatic" awards, though of much lower rank (people like communications or secretarial staff) not commissioned foreign service officers. (The usual Spanish diplomatic awards are Charles III or Isabella the Catholic.) That circumstance might make the Mirinda officer grade incompatable--that's not to say impossible!

[Herr General]

Thanks for your large and very informative reaction!

What puzzles me is the fact that the ribbons are mounted in the Prussian court style way introduced in the Netherlands by HRH Prince Hendrik von Mecklenburg-Schwerin. This way of mounting is used in the military and by court personnel. (civilians and diplomats wear there medals hanging from the ribbon)

Since there is no officers or NCO?s long service award in the group I lean towards court personnel. The Royal House Order could be a reward for long service.

But why two awards from Venezuela? Could he have received the lower award (knights grade) during the state visit and the higher (officers grade) during a counter visit? Or during a second stop in Venezuela during the state visit to Suriname and the islands? I am still looking for more details about the state visits from Queen Beatrix but I know that there where state visits during the time frame of this bar (1980).

I haven?t received the bar in the mail yet. I hope that it is mounted by the Dutch Medal firm van Wielik. The manager since 30 years is still the same and maybe she remembers this combination!

[922F]

Thanks for your large and very informative reaction!

What puzzles me is the fact that the ribbons are mounted in the Prussian court style way introduced in the Netherlands by HRH Prince Hendrik von Mecklenburg-Schwerin. This way of mounting is used in the military and by court personnel. (civilians and diplomats wear there medals hanging from the ribbon)

Since there is no officers or NCO's long service award in the group I lean towards court personnel. The Royal House Order could be a reward for long service.

But why two awards from Venezuela? Could he have received the lower award (knights grade) during the state visit and the higher (officers grade) during a counter visit? Or during a second stop in Venezuela during the state visit to Suriname and the islands? I am still looking for more details about the state visits from Queen Beatrix but I know that there where state visits during the time frame of this bar (1980).

I haven't received the bar in the mail yet. I hope that it is mounted by the Dutch Medal firm van Wielik. The manager since 30 years is still the same and maybe she remembers this combination!

Hello, Based on your research and photos on the web and in magazines, I think you are correct in placing the recipient as a court official. I'm not sure how he would have gotten two Venezuelan awards but, especially if he accompanied the Queen on visits (several times over the years) and/or was present when the visit was returned, it could make sense. Sometimes, as you know, once a person gets one medal the others come more easily, even multiple decorations from the same country! I believe there were (are) some medal bars displayed at Apeldoorn that contained both a French Legion of Honor and either an Agriculture Merit or Palmes Academic. On the other hand, perhaps it is a Spanish Civil Merit!

I hope that your friend at van Wielik can help identify the holder! It's sure to be an unusual, perhaps one-of-a-kind, combination. Congratulations!

[Herr General]

Just received some exciting news. The seller of this bar emailed me, he suddenly remembered that he had a small note in his archive stating that this bar belonged to a Police Commissar from one of the larger cities in Holland! He also remembered that the last order is 100 % certain the Civil Merit Order of Spain. As soon as he finds the note he will email me the name and medallist.

The King of Spain visited Holland in 1980. The president of Venezuela in 1979.

[922F]

Again, Congratulations! Replacing the Spanish Civil Merit knight would not be too hard but the Mirinda will be easier and cheaper!! It will be interesting to learn what Oranje Nassau grade he received. Do you think the police would use the military/court type mounting? Perhaps the owner later went to work at the Court?? I will be interested to learn the identity/history too. Have you seen any Dutch medal groups containing Albanian awards? I know of at least 2, one to an officer with a Weid Black Eagle knight and one to either a police officer or a soldier with a Black Eagle medal. A book was written some years ago about the Dutch contingent in Albania in 1914 including some information on medals. Also, some Dutchmen received awards from King Zog. Edited May 23, 2007 by 922F

[Herr General]

Thanks. Have you seen any of these for sale recently?

Knight in the Order of the golden palm of Suriname

Officer in the Order of Francisco de Miranda of Venezuela

Knight in the Civil Merit Order of Spain

I still haven't received the name. I hope he can find this note. I have one other Police (most likely) unnamed medal group in my collection and that one isn?t court mounted but hanging from the ribbon. It consists of a Officer in the Order of Oranje Nassau, Mobilisation cross 1914-1918, Officer in the Crown order of Siam and Officer in the Order of the Black Star from Benin.

I know of a few Dutch persons that received medals from King Zog. I haven't seen groups from the Weid era. I will ask Erik Muller from www.onderscheidingen.nl to view this thread. I think he might have more information for you! Do you have pictures of those bars?

Edited May 24, 2007 by Herr General

[Herr General]

Here are some orders to members of the Peace mission:

Generaal-majoor Willem J.H .de Veer

Grandcross in the Order of Skanderbeg

6-8-1914

Prince William of Wied Accession Medal

7-3-1914

Majoor Henri J.L. Kroon

Commandeur in the Order of Skanderbeg

6-8-1914

majoor Lodewijk W.J.K. Thomson

Order of the Black Eagle

26-4-1914

Order of the Golden Eagle

28-4-2003

majoor Johan M. Sluys

Order of the Black Eagle

Prince William of Wied Accession Medal

7-3-1914

majoor Lucas Roelfsema

Knight 4th classe in the order of the Black Eagle

Here are the other members of the mission:

1ste luitenant Gerard A. Mallinckrodt

majoor Wouter de Waal

majoor Hugo J. Verhulst

majoor Joan E. Snellen van Vollenhoven

kapitein Carel de Iongh

kapitein Jetze Doorman

kapitein Jan Fabius

kapitein Julius H. Sonne

kapitein Hendrik G.A. Reimers

kapitein Jan H. Sar

Officier van gezondheid Tiddo Reddingius

sergeant-verpleger Jan van Vliet

Dr. F. de Groot

Other recipients of Albanian Orders:

J. Goldwurm

Officer in the Order of Skanderbeg

22-12-1937

The orders of Majoor Thomson during a ceremonie in 2004

Edited May 24, 2007 by Herr General

[922F]

Here are some orders to members of the Peace mission:

Generaal-majoor Willem J.H .de Veer

Grandcross in the Order of Skanderbeg

6-8-1914

Prince William of Wied Accession Medal

7-3-1914

Majoor Henri J.L. Kroon

Commandeur in the Order of Skanderbeg

6-8-1914

majoor Lodewijk W.J.K. Thomson

Order of the Black Eagle

26-4-1914

Order of the Golden Eagle

28-4-2003

majoor Johan M. Sluys

Order of the Black Eagle

Prince William of Wied Accession Medal

7-3-1914

majoor Lucas Roelfsema

Knight 4th classe in the order of the Black Eagle

Here are the other members of the mission:

1ste luitenant Gerard A. Mallinckrodt

majoor Wouter de Waal

majoor Hugo J. Verhulst

majoor Joan E. Snellen van Vollenhoven

kapitein Carel de Iongh

kapitein Jetze Doorman

kapitein Jan Fabius

kapitein Julius H. Sonne

kapitein Hendrik G.A. Reimers

kapitein Jan H. Sar

Officier van gezondheid Tiddo Reddingius

sergeant-verpleger Jan van Vliet

Dr. F. de Groot

Other recipients of Albanian Orders:

J. Goldwurm

Officer in the Order of Skanderbeg

22-12-1937

The orders of Majoor Thomson during a ceremonie in 2004

First, Thank you for this fantastic information! I am especially interested and happy to see Major Thomson's orders-cushion--I suppose the event was the presenting to him of the Albanian Golden Eagle Order! I have just read a book called "The Six Month Kingdom" that adds a lot of information, including the heroic deeds of the Major. If you are familiar with his story, it was rumored that he was killed by an Italian as a matter of policy--and this book, which was written by Wilhelm's a-d-c, repeats that story. The photo is a bit unclear. Do I see a Military Order of William, and other campaign medals plus many foreign awards? I know Wilhelm awarded him the Black Eagle commander but do not remember if with swords. The Montenegro Danilo is also surprise--THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THIS WONDERFUL PHOTO!!!

I have Dr. Kietmann's Ordens Lexicon II which details some of the Black Eagle awards. Incidentially, the first two men on your list received the Black Eagle, not Skanderbeg, in 1914. I have found additional awards not described in Klietmann including more to Dutch soldiers or police and possibly civilians. You may know Mr. Meyer who had a group with a Black Eagle knight and Wilhelm accession medal. I have photocopy illustration of that group and will find a way to send you a copy if you like.

"The Six Months Kingdom" also suggests a much wider distribution of Wilhelm awards, including to French, British, and possibly American as well as more Dutch, German, Austrian Italian, and Albanian persons.

More on this subject shortly after I locate the medal group photostat. There was a French decoration group with either a Black Eagle officer or knight plus the accession medal, perhaps with Colonel Rullier, in Paris in 1976-78?--the late 1970s in any case.

I was so excited to read your news I was not polite in responding to your questions! Finding a Mirinda was relatively easy at the 2006 OMSA meeting. You may know that the manufacturer, N.S. Meyer of New York, went out of business. Much of the old stock, especially Boliver and Mirinda Orders was on offer at the OMSA convention. I think a Mirinda officer would not be too much, maybe US $50-70. I could look for one for you at the Texas convention if you do not find one by August. The Golden Palm knight is much harder to find, in my experience. Liverpool had one once but they wanted a lot of money for it. However, the decorations were made in the Netherlands and I probably can find the maker's name for you. A Spanish Civil Merit knight, likely Juan Carlos type would be correct, you can buy directly from Celjavo in Madrid. The last time I was there, several years ago, the cost was about 130 euros. They might be cheaper on the collector market.

Your other group is extremely impressive!! Do you suppose the man was serving before 1940? The Black Star of Benin looks like a pre-World War II manufactured piece. Thank you for showing this group! Will you be able to discover the person's name and position?

Best regards, and I will send a follow-up on the Black Eagle Order in the next few days....if not tomorrow, I must go on a short trip until next week, probably return on Friday. June 1.

EJ

[Herr General]

No problem. Thomson received the following Orders:

Netherlands - Knight in the Military Order of William (1987)

Netherlands - Knight in the Order of the Dutch Lion (1913)

Netherlands - Knight in the Order of Oranje Nassau with the Swords (1903)

Netherlands - Silver Medal for donations to public collections (1912)

Netherlands - Cross for Important War actions with clasps

Netherlands - Officers long service Cross with the numeral

France - Officer in the Legion of Honour (1911)

Greece - Officer (?) in the Order of the Redeemer (Military observer during the Balkanwar)

Greece - Medal for the Greek -Turkisch war 1912-1913

Sweden - Knight in the Order of the Sword (1913)

Montenegro - Knight (?) in the Order of Danilo (Military observer during the Balkanwar)

Albania - Knight (?) in the Order of the Black Eagle (1914)

Albania - ''Komturklasse mit Stern'' in the Order of the Black Eagle (posthumous juni 1914)

honorary citizenship from the city of Durres in Albania (posthumous 2000)

Albania - Golden Eagle order (posthumous 28-3-2004)

I found this photo online. I can't find a larger image. I believe that it was during the reveiling of a new monument in 2004.

I have Dr. Kietmann's Ordens Lexicon II which details some of the Black Eagle awards. Incidentially, the first two men on your list received the Black Eagle, not Skanderbeg, in 1914. I have found additional awards not described in Klietmann including more to Dutch soldiers or police and possibly civilians. You may know Mr. Meyer who had a group with a Black Eagle knight and Wilhelm accession medal. I have photocopy illustration of that group and will find a way to send you a copy if you like.

I compiled this information from period newspapers, they are listed as "Skanderbeg Orders" in the artikels. But the newspapers where often wrong in those days. I would love to see that photocopy!

I was so excited to read your news I was not polite in responding to your questions! Finding a Mirinda was relatively easy at the 2006 OMSA meeting. You may know that the manufacturer, N.S. Meyer of New York, went out of business. Much of the old stock, especially Boliver and Mirinda Orders was on offer at the OMSA convention. I think a Mirinda officer would not be too much, maybe US $50-70. I could look for one for you at the Texas convention if you do not find one by August. The Golden Palm knight is much harder to find, in my experience. Liverpool had one once but they wanted a lot of money for it. However, the decorations were made in the Netherlands and I probably can find the maker's name for you. A Spanish Civil Merit knight, likely Juan Carlos type would be correct, you can buy directly from Celjavo in Madrid. The last time I was there, several years ago, the cost was about 130 euros. They might be cheaper on the collector market.

Thanks for this information. I am still waiting for the name of the Police Commissar who onces owned this bar. I want to make sure that I buy the right classes of the Orders. Any help finding the missing Orders is more then welcome!

Your other group is extremely impressive!! Do you suppose the man was serving before 1940? The Black Star of Benin looks like a pre-World War II manufactured piece. Thank you for showing this group! Will you be able to discover the person's name and position?

I think that this group dates between WW1 and WW2. I think that he was a Police Inspector. The Dutch Mobilisation Cross for WW1 was also awarded to Police. Siam and France visited Holland and I think he received them during these state visits. I haven't been able to identify him!

Thanks!

[Herr General]

Hi EJ, hope your returned safely from your trip!