bar with 1866 non-combattant cross

[westfale]

Hi!

I've bought this bar a few days ago from a german dealer mostly due to the 1866 non-combattant cross. Now I would aks you: Is there any possibility to get a little bit more information about the holder of the bar? I hope some of you could help me with the reconstruction of the possible career of the holder or with some other information...

Thanks a lot

westfale

Edited June 12, 2007 by westfale

[Paul R]

That is a great bar. I love noncombatant bars. Especially the pre 1900 ones.

1. General Decoration Silver Medal(or Order of the Red Eagle without swords)

2. Non Combatant 1866 Campaign Medal!!!

3. Order of Hohenzollen without swords

You do have a genuinely great bar! If you ever bored with it... Here is mine: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1361...l=non+combatant

Can you please post the reverse? Any provisions for attaching medals?

I am sure that one of our esteemed members will be able to more adequately answer your question.

[Guest Rick Research]

What does the BACK look like?

Have you blacklighted it?

[Paul R]

What does the BACK look like?

Have you blacklighted it?

Do you see a potential problem? Should the Order of Hohenzollen without swords be a bit higher than what it is on the bar?

I like the uniform wear and staining on the ribbons.

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't see enough wear or fading--and yet the ribbons look rather "wrinkly" so I'd expect some fraying on the high points and edges. As silk ribbons age, normally they shrink and the thread sewing them pulls tight, so ribbons start to cut along the top and bottom edges. These ribbons look... loose. The colors are incredibly fresh for a pre-1870 bar. That last one would be the 1848/49 Medal for suppression of the democratic movement in the Principality of Hohenzollern. Same ribbon as the Order, but in that spot only a campaign medal. (Baden gave a medal for the same thing on the ribbon of their family house order too.)

The back will tell the rest of the story, since bars that old don't look like later ones. Need to see the construction of it. And blacklighting all that white will tell the tale of whether the ribbons are old or new by if they glow bright electric blue.

[westfale]

Here the picture of the rearside of the bar.

I've checked the ribbons with black light, and they doesn't glow, so I think they are original.

westfale

Edited June 13, 2007 by westfale

[westfale]

And, additional, some detailed pictures of the hook and his mounting:

[westfale]

Here the second:

Edited June 13, 2007 by westfale

[westfale]

And the first one from an othern view:

Edited June 13, 2007 by westfale

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Westfale:

Congratulations regarding the acquisition of the field ribbon bar. I saw it for sale on the website just yesterday and thought that it was an interesting piece (I was considering buying it too-but too late!).

The backing is certainly original and period. The ribbons look like they are old silk stock.

The stitching of the ribbons is the only feature which could be an issue for some collectors. Yes, it does appear to be a bit haphazard and loose, but I have seen 100% original pieces that look a lot worse.

With an original backing and original ribbons, I vote that the piece is probably good!

As you know the 1866 campaign crosses are a bit scarce.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Guest Rick Research]

Ahhhhhh, see-- the BACK always clears everything up!

The General Decoration/Red Eagle is loose because the stitching has BROKEN on the back. THAT is why the overlap is slack.

The reverse is exactly the messy horror it should be.

All "issues" are now clarified and resolved. Looks good to me!

Now, as to what kind of person wore that:

It's an officer's bar (no hooks on back), meant and worn ONLY as a ribbon bar. No 1870/71 medal, so it probably dates from around then. Then it was put away and stored perfectly afterwards.

So it must be a Red Eagle, not a General Decoration medal. Red Eagles that early were quite scarce-- not at all the routine "every Major has one" award they were under Kaisere Wilhelm II.

The 1866 noncombatant indicates either a medical officer or a Beamter. Medical officers were authorized to wear the XXV Years Service Cross, but Beamten did not get that until after 1918 (authorized in 1914 but suspended for the World War).

So, I think you have a senior Beamter. He was probably at "Major" level (as high as most such officials ever could be). I have no Rank Lists before 1890, so I don't know if as far back as this bar dates, they were listed at all. But since the wretched Prussians NEVER listed campaign medals, all that would show in any rank List of theirs would be "RAO4."

So impossible to identify. But he probably did NOT come up in any of the career paths that were drawn from long serving NCOs (Lazaretteninspektoren etc etc). He was "senior management."

[westfale]

Thanks a lot for all of your replies!

It is great to see the interest also in older bars, and the "bad news" that it's impossible to identify the holder of the bar aren't really bad, because now there are some more information than before about this man, so there is a short story which is better than none...

I thought the prussians had a list of the recepients of thier crosses, especially of the non-combattant... Is there really no possibility to get an information about the holders fron another source?---

Nvertheless - in my collection I have an 1866 non-cobattant cross and also the 1848/49 medal of hohenzollern, so it's time to look for the red bird!

Thanks again

westfale