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Kev in Deva

Republic of Ireland Military Good Conduct Medal.

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Hallo Gentlemen :cheers:

I am posting here pictures of a Republic of Ireland Military Good Conduct Medal

which recently sold for 779 GB Pounds on Ebay.

From the selling description:

"The medal is in excellent condition. It was issued in 1989 to a serving Irish Army NCO and has seen a little parade use.

The medal is full size and, including ribbon, measures 3 and a ? inches long.

Instituted by the Defense Forces in 1987 with the first medal presentations in 1989. The medal is ranked after the Distinguished Service Medal and before the Service Medal of the Permanent Defense Forces. The medal is awarded to an individual NCO or private soldier / sailor / airman in recognition of meritorious service characterized by exemplary conduct.

The medals were only awarded to individuals with ten years continuous service and only 60 medals were awarded each year. Medals were presented at special presentation parades by the General Officer Commanding. The medal ceased to be issued after 1990 however, due to numerous arguments which arose in relation to the recipients of the medal. Therefore only 120 medals were ever issued.

Additional Information from Kevin in Deva:

An Bonn Dea Iompair. / The Good Conduct Medal.

Medals are presented at ceremonial parades by General Officers Commanding.

They may be awarded posthumously and an appropriate certificate accompanies each award.

A curious clause in the regulations stipulates that a recipient who is subsequently commissioned may retain his GCM but may not wear it or the ribbon in officers uniform.

There is also a provision for forfeiture in certain ceircumstances.

The medal is heavy bronze, 35mm in diameter.

Obverse: The figure of Eire is placing a wreath on the uncovered head of a kneeling soldier, the Irish name of the medal is to the left and there is a small spray of laurel to the right.

Apart from the inscription*, (Service Number and Name) the design is identical to the obverse of the PDF Service Medal.

* this would indicate to me that all issues were engraved with the receipiants number & name, the one from the auction is NOT engraved so :o

Reverse: The inscription in English "THE GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL"

with the receipiant's number, intials amd name in center.

ALL GCM's are issued named.

Ribbon: A significant departure from the traditional styles, the ribbon is 35 mm wide, orange with three 5 mm green stripes at 45 degrees from wearer's right to left.

Suspension: Ring.

Designer: Departmental.

Manufacturer: P. Quin Ltd., Dublin.

In view of the limited number od issues and the fact that all medals are named this may become the most important collector's item after the Military Medal for Gallentry andthe Distinguished Service Medal.

As of 1990 the issue of this medal has been temporarily suspended and consideration is being given to altering its name and conditions of award.**

** In my time, and I served until late 1997, this medal had been predominantly issued to:

Company-Quarter-Master-Sergeants,

Company-Sergeants,

Sergeants,

Corporals,

and a few Privates.

The Military Police Corps had a high reciepiant rate, causing "Old-Sweats" to refer to it has the "Hang-man's Medal" or "Gate-Opener's Medal" some even proposed there should be a re-design with a Hang-man's noose on the Obverse!! :lol:

Again with all such rare medals one can only wonder how a un-named specimen got to be issued to a "Serving NCO" in 1989 :rolleyes:

Kevin in Deva.

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I must also comment on the box the medal was pictured in

while being a definate improvment on the official issue cardboard boxes

this is not I believe official, I, certainly never saw any Irish medals issued

in any such boxes while in service from 1976 - 1997.

Kevin in Deva :beer:

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Again the recent seller of the Irish Good Conduct Medal was also offering a

Service Medal in a box, this box too is not official issue.

The medal shown was officially issued to: 850660 Walker (?)

When I get a little time I will photograph the issue boxes my Irish Army medals came in and post them.

Kevin in Deva :cheers:

Edited by Kev in Deva

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Kev,

I would say that whoever paid that price for the good conduct medal really had more money than sense! I picked up my boxed medal last year for ?235 and a fair in Dublin. I also saw a 1916 medal go least week on ebay for $15,000.

here is my example.

regards,

Mark

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Kev,

I would say that whoever paid that price for the good conduct medal really had more money than sense! I picked up my boxed medal last year for ?235 and a fair in Dublin. I also saw a 1916 medal go least week on ebay for $15,000.

here is my example.

regards,

Mark

Hallo Mark, :cheers:

is your one with number and name to the rear?? From my understanding of the regulations NONE were issued without having the receipiants details to the rear.

Kevin in Deva :cheers:

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Kevin,

My medal was not issued, it is one of the many of this award that went un-issued. Interesting story about these medals, when I was in the naval service I was talking to a guy who was detailed to take a load of these away for destruction. Needless to say he kept quite a few. At the time of talking to him I wasn't collecting, am looking forward to bumping inot him again now that I am!

Regards,

Mark

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Hi Mark :cheers:

I must say I never heard of current Irish medals being taken away for destruction, in over 21 years service in the Irish Defence Forces!! :speechless1:

Even more so as the issue was only suspended in 1990 and the questions over the qualification for the issue of the medal never being fully resolved (the particular un-named example at the start of this thread was claimed by the seller in his description to have been issued to serving NCO!!!

The then common procedure of any millitary item was that it had to be signed for by some BQ or CQMS along the line, if being returned, then, the particular Barrack-Quarter-Master (B.Q.M.S) or Company-Quarter-Master-Sergeant (CQMS) that had them on stock must show them as being struck off strength and have a receipt for them. They would at all times remain the property of the Department of Defence.

Normally blank medals were sent to the Engineer Company of the particular Commands, and there would have been engraved per details issued via Battalion strength returns in that Command for Service Medals etc..etc... my own medal details were applied by 4th Fld Eng Coy, in Custume Barracks Athlone, then forwarded onto my Battalion (the 28th Infantry Battalion) Finner Camp for issue.

As the 1916 era medals are currently being faked, then I suspect the same might be happening with these Good Conduct Medals, certainly they do not warrent the high prices they are getting even if they can be verified as genuine issued articles / items.

I notice yours is in the same style box as the previous medals mentioned on this thread.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

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The unnamed pieces are basically the unissued stock which went out the back door of the stores once the decision was made not to issue any more. ALL of the issued pieces were offically named and numbered. Anyone who trys to claim otherwise is spinning yarns.

Cheers,

Paul

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Hallo Paul, :cheers:

by stores do you mean the factory stores? as I have said in my post "attractive items" such as these Medals would have been in an accountable system, as on ledger, (and it has yet to be established if ever there was a written order given for there destruction,) there was more than likely an order issued out in writing to all Barrack-Quartermaster-Sergeants of the various Commands to return them too what ever Stores was designated as Headquarters Stores for the return of the medals, thus them being struck of the Units / Bn / Regiments / Commands Ledgers.

These items were not your ordinery "run of the mill service medals" so no doubt somebody would have to have been accountable for there whereabouts, and if and when an Officer regardless of whar rank, has signed a certificate that they have been destroyed and then have the items turn up in public questions would be asked and answers expected.

For and Officer to sign his name to a Certificate indicating that items X,Y,Z had been destroyed before his eyes and then have them resurface would be a Court of Inquiry matter.

I had some experiance in the Barrack Service Stores at Castlebar Military Barracks, which came under the Barrack Service Stores of Custume Barracks in Athlone, H.Q for the Western Command area, and every item shown on the ledger's had to be accounted for and the correct paperworrk shown, there was always a paper trail regardless of what the items were, and even more so for items like medals, etc...etc..

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

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Hi Kevin,

I meant the barrack stores. Unfortunately things in the stores are not as tightly controlled as they were in days gone by. I have it on very reliable knowledge that a number of these medals as well as at least 2 MMG 1st Class, and 3 each of the 2nd and 3rd class MMG, a few DSMs and about 20 unissued 1916 Medals were allegedly pilfered from stores over the space of a few years. The army also decided to destroy their stock of Emergency medals and most of these leaked out into the collector's market as well.

Best regards,

Paul

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Hallo Paul, :beer:

Well its up to each person to believe or dis-believe what they will with regards stories about medals. Many a fine tale has been tacked onto objects of collectable value over the years, and yes there is a sucker born every minute.

But one thing I forgot to mention is that medals of such a classification as mentioned here are held in Reserve as replacements

should the receipiant damage or loose his issue piece, as all receipiants are entitled to one free replacement (after that they must pay for a replacement), this applies to all service medals on issue, and I very much doubt that all unissued would be rounded up and destroyed, (by destruction I also presume they are returned to the manufacturer to be smelted down. Pictures of boxes of medals being wrapped in explosive and blasted into atoms in the Glen of Immal springing to mind :lol:)

If these items have been trickling out the back door of a military store and turning up for sale I believe the State would have the option to confiscate them if and when seen offered for sale as they remain State property (as do the ones on issue). Also the Gardai would be involved as theft is theft and again all items remain accountable and certifiable.

I well remember the investigation into a certain C.Q.M.S. when it was found he was "UP" 7.62mm magazines for the F.N. Rifle thats as bad as being "Down" items, that you carry on your Ledgers.

Anyway, I still have some contacts in the Army and will make some inquiries.

Kevin in Deva :beer:

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The unnamed pieces are basically the unissued stock which went out the back door of the stores once the decision was made not to issue any more. ALL of the issued pieces were offically named and numbered. Anyone who trys to claim otherwise is spinning yarns.

Cheers,

Paul

The Medal Society of Ireland journal # 11 & 14 lists the officially named recipients for 1988 & 1989 respectively - ALL 120.

An Ceallach

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Kev,

I also saw a 1916 medal go least week on ebay for $15,000.

here is my example.

regards,

Mark

Mark,

The 1916 medal you reference was stated to be an award to J. O"Reilly and numbered #63. This low medal number would indicate an Easter Week killed in action casualty.

Excerpt from the Last Post - pp.43

"Leaving six men at the entrance to Dublin Castle, he led his main body of the Irish Citizen Army into the City Hall, where they took over control. After placing his garrison, Sean (Connolly) went out onto the roof where he was shot dead by a sniper in the clock tower of the Castle. John J. O'Reilly took over command at once, but was himself killed that same evening at about six o'clock............."

Excerpt from the Last Post - pp.109

"O'Reilly, John J. 14 Lr. Gardiner St., Dublin. Killed in action at City Hall, Dublin. 24/4/'16. Buried family plot, St. Paul's, Glasnevin Cemetery, Dublin."

If a genuine issue, then to some, good value. More on this later.

An Ceallach

Edited by Ceallach

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Hi Kev in Dava,

Is there any possibility that our musings on the 1916/1921 Service medals could be kept under a topic head. There have been useful postings on this area in recent past, in particular the contributions of Paul M. Would be a help rather than searching through random topic headings.

Just a thought.

An Ceallach

Edited by Ceallach

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Hi Kev in Dava Deva, :P

Is there any possibility that our musings on the 1916/1921 Service medals could be kept under a topic head. There have been useful postings on this area in recent past, in particular the contributions of Paul M. Would be a help rather than searching through random topic headings.

Just a thought.

An Ceallach

Hallo Ceallach, :beer:

With regards the War if Independance era, I think if we ask one of the Moderators to put the following threads,

which are located in:

Militaria by Region: European Militaria & History (Non Communist States) > Northern European & Baltic States: Non Communist Era

into one topic:

1. ANYBODY NOTICE WHAT IRISH MEDALS RELATING TO THE WAR IF INDEPENDANCE 1916 - 1920,

it would help ease reading about the items:

2. Irish War of Independance Medal with 'Comrac' Bar, Grouping with a couple of extra pieces.

3. 1916 easter uprising medal recipients, irish medals.

4. IRISH 1916 IRA SET On EBAY, Starting Bid: 1,500 Quid, or ?2,209.77c

5. Irish Medals at Auction

And I think the following threads related to modern Irish Medals could be grouped under:

1. DEFENCE FORCE OF IRELAND SERVICE MEDALS.

2. My Presentation Gift on my retirement from the Irish Defence Forces.,

3. Rare Irish Merchant Marine medal 1939 - 45, Only 32 medals issued with three bars.

4. Republic of Ireland Military Good Conduct Medal., Rare Item recently sold on Ebay.

Please feel free to add any thoughts.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

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Does the Irish Govt currently award a Good Conduct or Long Service medal for Honorable Service within the armed forces?

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Does the Irish Govt currently award a Good Conduct or Long Service medal for Honorable Service within the armed forces?

Hallo Paul,

there are no awards for Good Conduct or Honorable service in the Irish Defence Forces.

The Good Conduct Medal issue was stopped because of the adverse effect it was creating when being awarded.

The criteria was just too open to abuse, many felt it was being awarded to people who were very friendly with the people making the recomendations, it seem to go to a lot of Company Headquarter personnel and Military Police.

I hope Ceallach would be good enough to post the complete list contained in "The Medal Society of Ireland journal # 11 & 14 lists the officially named recipients for 1988 & 1989 respectively - ALL 120."

Hopefully then it will be possible to break down the percentage of Privates, Corporals, Sergeants, Company-Sergeants, Company-QM-Sergeants who were getting it.

Its a pity really that the issue was suspended, many soldiers were only going to get a service medal or Service Medal with bar for reasons of being unable to volunteer for overseas with UN, or service medal and bar, and a U.N. medal and an Irish Commemorative U.N. Service Medal.

There is no medal or insignia for wounds being sustained on active service in Ireland or for wounds or injuries received on U.N. Service.

There is not even a service ribbon on the sleeve of the uniform to indicate years of service as with other armies.

The Reserve Defence Forces recently were granted permission to wear a bar on their Service Medals for 21 years service, something not even granted to the regular military!!

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

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Hallo Ceallach, :beer:

With regards the War if Independance era, I think if we ask one of the Moderators to put the following threads,

which are located in:

Militaria by Region: European Militaria & History (Non Communist States) > Northern European & Baltic States: Non Communist Era

into one topic:

1. ANYBODY NOTICE WHAT IRISH MEDALS RELATING TO THE WAR IF INDEPENDANCE 1916 - 1920,

it would help ease reading about the items:

2. Irish War of Independance Medal with 'Comrac' Bar, Grouping with a couple of extra pieces.

3. 1916 easter uprising medal recipients, irish medals.

4. IRISH 1916 IRA SET On EBAY, Starting Bid: 1,500 Quid, or ?2,209.77c

5. Irish Medals at Auction

And I think the following threads related to modern Irish Medals could be grouped under:

1. DEFENCE FORCE OF IRELAND SERVICE MEDALS.

2. My Presentation Gift on my retirement from the Irish Defence Forces.,

3. Rare Irish Merchant Marine medal 1939 - 45, Only 32 medals issued with three bars.

4. Republic of Ireland Military Good Conduct Medal., Rare Item recently sold on Ebay.

Please feel free to add any thoughts.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Hi Kevin,

You have my vote - but could "Anbody notice what" be removed from the 1916/21 topic header.

An Ceallach

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Thanks Kev! That is really tragic!! I actually like that medal and ribbon combination. It sounds to me that the best solution would have been to reform the award criteria. Do you think that they will bring it back, in some form? I wonder why they have such a lack of medals and wearable awards? Are medals viewed as too "British"?

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Hallo Paul, :cheers:

This is slightly off topic but goes to show the mentality that prevailed with regards the equipment of the PDF (Permanent Defence Force) of Ireland.

the "Too British" aspect dosent come into the factor at all, seeing the Irish Military has been a seperate entety since 1922.

Its the "penny-pinching" people who work for the Department of Finance along with the ever-present "cost-cutting" buddies in the Defence Department who do not wish to spend money on such trinkets as medals or insignia.

The same mentality applies to the Irish getting any new equipment, during my time in service we were involved in massive search for Mr. Don Tidy

Mr Tidey, a senior supermarket executive, was kidnapped by an IRA gang in November 1983 and was held for 23 days before his release. His kidnapping sparked a nationwide search which led to a shoot-out at Derrada Wood, near Ballinamore, Co Leitrim, during which a trainee Garda and a member of the Defence Forces were killed.

The businessman was found in a dugout in a secluded wooded area under the guard of four Kalashnikov armed men.

Trainee (unarmed) Garda Gary Sheehan (23) of Carrickmacross, Co Monaghan, and Pte. Patrick Kelly (35) of Moate, Co Westmeath, armed with a 7.62mm SLR were killed in a shoot-out.

Mr. Tidey sent a wreath to the Gardai funeral but none to the soldier who he said was after all doing what he was paid to do :angry:

Shortly after this period we were fell in on Parade in Finner Camp and marched into one of the wooden huts for a lecture by the then Adjutant of the 28th Infantry Battalion, he told us about the short comings encountered in mounting searches with the Gardai (Police) and to rectify the problem for the future we were expected to obtain at our own exspences the following items laid out for display on a nearby table.

1 plain Green rain suit and pants.

1 pair of Rubber Wellington boots, Green or Black (no yellow ones allowed!)

1 wooly cap for keeping the head warm (no Ski Masks or Balaclavas, to similar to what "The Boys" wear).

1 pair of good quality wet-proof gloves (black in colour).

1 good quality Large Flash-Ligh complete with spare batteries and bulbs.

1 mini camping gas stove and spare catridges.

I army surplus neck-veil British Army style.**

1 army surplus style combat hood (Our jackets had fixing buttons for this item yet the hood was never on issue :o

1 Emergency Ration Pack the following contents kept in a plastic box with airtight lid:

Contents: Tea-bags, Sugar packets, Milk-powder, Coffee, packets of Cheese, chocolate bars such as Mars, Snickers etc,

Glucose sweets, chewing gum.

2 X Rolls of Civillian Issue toilet paper.

All the items were to be kept ready in the normal field pack along with issue socks, underwear, towel & washing equipment, Knife Fork, spoon and Aluminum Plate. for any Emergency call out.

At this time we were also to be issued "at great expense to the State" a second set of Combat Uniform, as soldiers had been filmed during the Tidey affair wearing wet & torn combats (not having spares it was deemed embarrising for the general public to see dirty white underwear showing through the barbed wire torn crotches of Army combat pants. :speechless1:

** About this time to somebody with a bit of savvy was begining to question the dress code of wearing light Kahki shirts with a brown neck-tie under combat jackets. It was also standard wear under the one-piece overalls that were standard barrack wear for all General Duties. :speechless:

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Edited by Kev in Deva

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Hallo Paul, :cheers:

the "Too British" aspect dosent come into the factor at all, seing the Irish Military has been a seperate entity since 1922. its the "penny-pinching" people who work for the Department of Finance along with the ever-present "cost-cutting" buddies in the Defence Department who do not wish to spend money on such trinkets as medals or insignia.

The same mentality applies to the Irish getting any new equipment (will add more to this later) :D

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

That is a real shame. Funds must be very tight. :cheers:

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That is a real shame. Funds must be very tight. :cheers:

Hallo Paul, :cheers:

Well you have to remember that the Irish are not in N.A.T.O. and the force including the three services of Army, Aer Corps, and Navy with the Part-time Reserve was about 15,000 strong.

With regards the uniform design, when I went in the Army in 1976 the Regulars were wearing the new modern design uniform for parade wear which had come into being circa 1974, the FCA (Reserves) were still wearing the style very reminiscent of the WW2 British battle dress. Both groups wore Black Berets with the same "FF Sunburst" badges in a red square background.

Eventually the F.C.A. got the same style uniforms as us but F.C.A. personnel were only allowed the plain green combat if they were part of the small group employed on full-time duty in Military Barracks along the border, they got all the glamorous jobs of spud-peeling and dixie-bashing and Barrack and Camp Fire-Piquet, they also shared in Camp and barrack guard armed with the Lee-Enfield, Mk. 4 303.

And no offence to these chaps there was a certain "Dads Army" look about them, the other thing was an increased use of F.C.A. officers to perform the task of Barrack or Camp Duty Officer, these guys carrying the same commissions as a regular Officer would drive into work, perform their 24 hour duty then head home the next morning, while some of the younger officers were fairly smart and knew what they were doing some of the more older and inflexible types were barely treated with respect by the regulars for their incompetence (for example when mounting the Daily Guard or Weekly Patrols it was the regular Barrack Orderly Sergeant who prompted them in the commands through-out the ceremony.) Do not get me wrong I give credit where credit is due to both sides of the fence.

I will have to seriously think about setting down the situations and conditions in more detail with regards these times as there is far more than I can fill in here. (Might be a job for a long cold winter in Transylvania) :lol:

From about 2001 the Permanent Defence Forces of Ireland finally got their camo uniforms to replace the plain green ones in use since the early 1970's also Gore-Tex weather proof clothing, new web-equipment along with new Flack-Jackets, (we had been using the Austrian Styer 5.56mm AUG for a while previous to the issue of the camo clothing and Kevlar Israeli style helmets were introduced about the same time as the rifles.

A very handy informative booklet called "The Irish Defence Forces since 1922" by Donal MacCarron and Illustrated by Bill Younghusband published by Osprey Men-at-Arms 417, ISBN 1-84176-742-5 is a good read,

Coupled with "Irish Army Vehicles, Transport and Armour since 1922!, by Mr. Karl Martin, ISBN 0-9543413-0-9.

Kevin in Deva :beer:

Edited by Kev in Deva

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I hope Ceallach would be good enough to post the complete list contained in "The Medal Society of Ireland journal # 11 & 14 lists the officially named recipients for 1988 & 1989 respectively - ALL 120."

Hopefully then it will be possible to break down the percentage of Privates, Corporals, Sergeants, Company-Sergeants, Company-QM-Sergeants who were getting it.

Its a pity really that the issue was suspended, many soldiers were only going to get a service medal or Service Medal with bar for reasons of being unable to volunteer for overseas with UN, or service medal and bar, and a U.N. medal and an Irish Commemorative U.N. Service Medal.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

Hi Kev,

Hopefully the scanner will be sorted out shortly and I will get those lists uploaded.

While purusing through Dail reports ( I know, should be busy doing something else), came across the following. Seems there may have been a third year issue.

D?il ?ireann - Volume 416 - 20 February, 1992

Written Answers. - Good Conduct Medals.

Mr. Ryan Mr. Ryan

103. Mr. Ryan asked the Minister for Defence if he will outline (a) the number of good conduct medals that have been issued since the inception of the award and (2) the current criteria for issuing these; and if he will make a statement on the review of the issue criteria currently underway.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Wilson) John P. Wilson

Minister for Defence (Mr. Wilson): In the period 1988 to 1990 the good conduct medal was issued to 180 non-commissioned officers and privates.

In 1990 a review of the criteria for the award of the medal was initiated by the military authorities because the limit on the number of medals which could be issued annually ? 60 ? gave rise to a perception of invidious treatment. Certain proposals for the replacement of the good conduct medal by a new award have been drafted and further consideration of these in consultation with the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association is envisaged.

Regards - An Ceallach

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Hi

Interesting thread, I was in the Defence Forces in the late 1980s as an apprentice and we had to buy all our own tools and books and while on exercises we also had to provide at our own expense; our own quality socks, camo face paint, tin openers, net neck scarves, "Skip caps"- wooly type cap, insect repellent, gas stoves etc. Pretty much everything even down to the rubber ring used to hold the camo cover on the helmet. We were only issued one pair of green combats and if they got holed or torn that was hard luck, you mended and made do until the next issue. Army bargains on Capel Street did a lot of business with Irish soldiers! I have a newspaper cutting from 1988 and its a full page article on how the Army provided us with sun tan lotion while we where on exercise in Kilbride, big deal!!

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Hi

Interesting thread, I was in the Defence Forces in the late 1980s as an apprentice and we had to buy all our own tools and books and while on exercises we also had to provide at our own expense; our own quality socks, camo face paint, tin openers, net neck scarves, "Skip caps"- wooly type cap, insect repellent, gas stoves etc. Pretty much everything even down to the rubber ring used to hold the camo cover on the helmet. We were only issued one pair of green combats and if they got holed or torn that was hard luck, you mended and made do until the next issue. Army bargains on Capel Street did a lot of business with Irish soldiers! I have a newspaper cutting from 1988 and its a full page article on how the Army provided us with sun tan lotion while we where on exercise in Kilbride, big deal!!

Hallo Molders, :cheers:

what you have described would be very familiar to any member of the Irish Defence Forces circa 1976 till about 1989.

With regard socks, we were issued with three pairs of grey woollen socks, later green wool polyester mix, if you chose not

to wear them then you could wear civilian self bought socks.

In the early 1970's onwards the issue scarf was a green wooly one that itched like the devil, net scarves / veils came in, on

issue about the late 1980's early 1990's.

With regards combat issue if you were a member of the Border Units after 1985 you were entitled too two sets of combats,

the before that a pair of combats that had been damaged through "fair wear and tear" could be boarded and a new set

issued without expense to the soldier whose kit it was.

Camo face-paint, tin openers, insect repellent, skip caps, were all self bought,

as were the Battalion flash and Battalion Lanyard.

so was Brasso, Blanco, and boot-polish. (We also had to buy our own soap, tooth-paste and condoms :lol:)

Kevin in Deva (Served May 1976 - to November 1997.)

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