Sturmbataillon and Flammenwerfer

[Chris Boonzaier]

Has anyone had this one in their hands?

"Die deutsche Sturmbataillone im Weltkrieg "

Published in 1939..

I have no other info on it.

Thanks

Chris

[Glenn J]

Chris,

Die deutschen Sturmbataillone im Weltkrieg : Aufbau und Verwendung by Hellmuth Gruss

Verlag Berlin : Junker und D?nnhaupt, 1939 .

The MGFA in Potsdam has a copy. I'll try and get hold of it on Friday.

Regards

Glenn

[Chris Boonzaier]

Thanks,

I would be interested in seeing how detailed it is... it is potentially a great resource!

Thanks

Chris

P.S. Does anyone else know of any books with info on the SB Rohr? descriptions of actions etc?

The official SB Nr.5 history is very, very dry.

Best

Chris

[Chip]

Just an FYI for future reference. I have this one. It is a short book with only 156 pages and it includes the history of the bayer. Infantrie=Gesch?tz=Batterie Nr.2.

Chip

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

A rare book!!!

I have an EK2 doc to Sch?tzen Fritz Hinze of the MG company, awarded in June 1918...

Dont suppose there is a mention.....?

Also, could you see who the commander was at that time? Looks like Jen.... but that is a rough guess...

Thanks

Chris

[Chip]

Chris,

Sch?tze Hinze is not mentioned in the Ehrentafel, so he survived the war. There were only six men mentioned from the MGK who died.

There is no particular mention of Hinze. The battalion was in the Reuthel-Reims area during June of 1918. It appears that they were with the 203.Division, Gruppe Lindequist for the July offensive. The Bataillonsf?hrer at the time was Hauptmann Jenetzky. The book has a photo of him and his staff as well as a very interesting photo of most of commanders of the official storm battalions, including the commanders of the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, and 18th battalions. There are photos of several of the storm companies and one of the Musketentrupp of the 1.Strmkp., but none of the MGK.

Chip

Edited July 6, 2007 by Chip

[bob lembke]

Hi, Gentlemen;

Running on memory here, often a dangerous proposition, but a couple of points, ventured without referring to my copy, which is exactly that, a really excellent bound xerographic copy.

Later in the war, and certainly in 1918, I believe that Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) had not one but two MG companies. With its five storm companies and its other combined arms units, it was almost twice the size of most of the storm battalions, which were, I believe, three storm companies and one MG company. Chris, does your document simply refer to "the MG company"?

Graf von Schwerin was an artilleryman. He wrote the history almost 20 years after the events, having been lent Rohr's diary by his widow. Probably for that reason he goes on a great deal about the infantry gun battery, which I concede is an interesting topic, while almost entirely ignoring my personal mania, the Flammenwerfer (FW). S=B Rohr had its own FW detachment, and additionally periodically borrowed a FW Zug from Major Dr. Reddemann's FW regiment. My father was a member of 2. Kompagnie, Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) for much of the war, which was based not that far from Rohr, and he had the duty of fighting in the platoon lent to Rohr several times, a duty that he much enjoyed, due to their professionalism. (Pop had a very poor opinion of most German, French, and British troops, a position that I feel was unfair.)

S=B Rohr's FW Abteilung seemingly was not a part of Reddemann's unit, although I think that they must have required technical and probably training support from G=R=P=R. My guess that it was, in size, about a Halb=Zug. I also assume that Reddemann, who was sensitive to questions of "turf", did not like that arraingement and for his part seems to never mentioned it in his published writings. I would be delighted if anyone knows more about this issue and chimes in.

Bob Lembke

Edited July 5, 2007 by bob lembke

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

In the Rohr book Schwerin skips over all units, not only the FW. The MW and MG also get barely a mention.

According to him the FW Zug for Rohr came from the Flammenwerfer Regiment Pionier Bataillon 36... which is obviously wrong, but potentially has an understandable error... I think the Pionier Bataillon 36 is the answer.

According to a reference I have, ALL Sturm Bataillons had intergral FW units that were not part of GRPR. Most had just 3 Werfer, but 5. and 11. both had 9 werfer. Nr. 16.,17., 9., and 18. had to make do with only 2 werfer each.

(Pop had a very poor opinion of most German, French, and British troops, a position that I feel was unfair.)

He also seems to had a poor opinion about his Officers and NCOs :-) ... how many soldiers actually got a thumbs up? :-)

[bob lembke]

Hi,

According to him the FW Zug for Rohr came from the Flammenwerfer Regiment Pionier Bataillon 36... which is obviously wrong, but potentially has an understandable error... I think the Pionier Bataillon 36 is the answer.

I have to check a reference, but Pionier=Bataillon Nr. 36 was one of the cylinder gas release units set up by Haber and his co-workers. There first was Pionier=Regimenten Nr. 35 u. 36 of two battalions each, but these were later broken up into four battalions without regimental structures. What this has to do with FW, I don't know. I think he was just incorrect. Reddemann had a very large training infrastructure; training was first done in Berlin (my father had this duty when disabled by a wound), and finished at his training company at the flame regiment HQ in France.

According to a reference I have, ALL Sturm Bataillons had intergral FW units that were not part of GRPR. Most had just 3 Werfer, but 5. and 11. both had 9 werfer. Nr. 16.,17., 9., and 18. had to make do with only 2 werfer each.

Yes, that is a topic that I am very curious about. Reddemann, who I am sure did not like that arraingement, does not say a word about those arraingements. Would be very interested in your source.

(Pop had a very poor opinion of most German, French, and British troops, a position that I feel was unfair.)

He also seems to had a poor opinion about his Officers and NCOs :-) ... how many soldiers actually got a thumbs up? :-)

The only troops that he approved of in a blanket fashion were the Turks. Of course not as technical soldiers, but in terms of spirit. He had fought at Gallipoli as a volunteer Pionier before he joined the flame troops. (In the 1920's he ran guns to the Turks, invaded by the Greeks.) And he approved of the men of the elite units like Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) . He did not think much of most German troops, who he said tended to run away when they turned on the FW. He fought the French a lot, and he said that they had elan for the attack, but no stomach for the defense, at least against FW, and gave concrete evidence of that. I think he fought a bit against the Brits, possibly in Flanders, but I don't have specifics. He said that they were stubborn in the defense, but were dodgy in the attack, which I think was unfair. He later fought in the Freikorps in Berlin,and then was in the Schwartze Reichswehr. So he had a lot of experience with different opponents. He was one of that crazy 2% who really loved the war.

His company CO was a serious coward, stole the men's money, and, as an infantry officer, insulted the Pioniere. My father was delighted to shoot him. (There were no other Flamm=Pioniere within about 100 km, and the company CO could get away with a lot, at least for a while.) The Feldwebel knew that the Oberleutnant stole the men's money and in order to take earned leave men had to be buggered by him. He also allowed the cooks to steal food and sell it to French pig farmers. So the command structure was a corrupt crew. For his part, Pop was educated, some college, spoke six languages, had a really big mouth, and his father was a staff officer who outranked everyone. He visited Pop's company once, the company had to be called out for review, and then there was retaliation. He also ran a business in captured food-stuffs. So he was a good fighter, wounded four times, but hardly a "team player". So he led a Flamm=Trupp but never was even promoted to Gefreiter, and got his EK II in 1921. He really was quite a thug at that time.

Bob Lembke

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

According to him the FW Zug for Rohr came from the Flammenwerfer Regiment Pionier Bataillon 36... which is obviously wrong, but potentially has an understandable error... I think the Pionier Bataillon 36 is the answer.

I have to check a reference, but Pionier=Bataillon Nr. 36 was one of the cylinder gas release units set up by Haber and his co-workers. There first was Pionier=Regimenten Nr. 35 u. 36 of two battalions each, but these were later broken up into four battalions without regimental structures. What this has to do with FW, I don't know. I think he was just incorrect. Reddemann had a very large training infrastructure; training was first done in Berlin (my father had this duty when disabled by a wound), and finished at his training company at the flame regiment HQ in France.

I vaguely remember reading that before becoming Stinkpioniers the Pionier Batln 36 was actually Ersatz Pionier Batln. 36 with no attachment to any combat unit. Once it became a fully fledged Gastruppe, maybe it was Aus der maus, but I am thinking more in Terms of the later Ersatz unit for the Pionier Batln 36.

The kind of technical skills the gas cylinder and Flame thrower men needed must have been similar, not from a combat perspective, but from a equipment perspective.

It could well be that the Ersatz Batln, having more recruits on their hands than they could forward to their unit ( as gas soldiers are not killed that often), supplied men to other units? i.e. "Say, anyone have any men in the "Locksmith, plummer" kinda vein? Men who know their way arounds tanks and hoses?"

It seems that the Ersatz from Pionier Batln 36 would have been tailor made for FW units...

Maybe Schwerin MEANT to write "Gas Regiment Pionier batln 36" ?

[bob lembke]

Hi,

I vaguely remember reading that before becoming Stinkpioniers the Pionier Batln 36 was actually Ersatz Pionier Batln. 36 with no attachment to any combat unit. Once it became a fully fledged Gastruppe, maybe it was Aus der maus, but I am thinking more in Terms of the later Ersatz unit for the Pionier Batln 36.

The kind of technical skills the gas cylinder and Flame thrower men needed must have been similar, not from a combat perspective, but from a equipment perspective.

It could well be that the Ersatz Batln, having more recruits on their hands than they could forward to their unit ( as gas soldiers are not killed that often), supplied men to other units? i.e. "Say, anyone have any men in the "Locksmith, plummer" kinda vein? Men who know their way arounds tanks and hoses?"

Hi, Chris;

I just read thru Cron, and it sheds no light, aside from confirming the origin of P=R Nr. 35 and 36 and their eventual conversion to P=B Nr. 35, 36, 37, and 38. (Other battalions were added later, and the units shifted from cylinder attacks to projector attacks.)

One of the many mistakes (besides chosing Foulkes in the first place) the Brits made re: flame warfare was to put their flame company into the gas brigade. I think that they had the same idea, similar technology, etc., but the temperment required was very different. Foulkes recruited a lot of pharmacist and plumbers' apprentices, and while they were fine sneaking about doing basically plumbing work while hidden in a trench or a dugout they, or their officers, didn't seem to have the stomach to grab the damn FW and sneak and/or charge toward the enemy; their entire effort seemed to be trying to hide and avoid that effort. The best example is the crazy idea to take a 4600 pound device, disassemble it into 200-300 man-carries, carry it into a trench and then into an underground sap, and then try to push the monster towards the enemy underground, eventually poking a flame nozzle up thru the ground like a U-boat periscope up thru the water, to blindly spray flaming oil (hopefully) toward the enemy. A crazier idea could hardly be imagined.

I have my father's Militar=Pass (which regretably is strangely missing info that I find in all of the other 40-50 Paesse that I have studied, possibly due to his war with his company bureaucracy), and two kind collectors, one German and one in California, gave me a copy of another G=R=P=R and a S=B Rohr Pass, each has taught me interesting things about the formation of these units, where their men came from, etc. In this fashion I have discovered an interesting origin of the G=R=P=R men, which unfortunately I will have to keep under my hat until I publish. (For the second time I am enjoying having a book published with major inputs from myself and probably no credit whatsoever.)

Chris, I am building rosters of the men of these storm units. My G=R=P=R roster was two men a few years ago; now it is about 1200. I have just started rosters of S=B Rohr and Jaeger=Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 3, and will happily collect the names of men belonging to other storm units. I would be delighted if you would make available names and related info for such men from your collection of award documents. Likewise, I will be happy to do look-ups for you. I collect names, ranks, sub-unit, date, place, and nature of death if died in service, etc., and awards, if known. I am a bit confused. Was Fritz Hinze a member of S=B 1 or S=B 5? (Of course I want to cram him immediately into one or another roster!)

Bob Lembke

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Hinze was from Sturmbataillon Nr1.

My 2nd Rohr one is at the end of this thread... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13054

David Gregory has a Pass to a man who was FW trained, but was never a Garde Pionier. I cannot remember the unit details.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, Chris;

In this fashion I have discovered an interesting origin of the G=R=P=R men, which unfortunately I will have to keep under my hat until I publish.

I would suggest checking with fellow collectors BEFORE going to print.

There are often Wehrpass anamolies that can be very misleading. Once printed it is hard to correct.

Best

Chris

[bob lembke]

Chris;

I appreciate the advice. My father was in the unit in question about 4-5 times, as he seemed to have been initially trained there (a period say 6-8 weeks); he was sent there from G=R=P=R when he was wounded and medically declared unfit for FW duty, seemed to have been there for duty training new recruits. I have his oral history and lots of correspondence to fill out what he was doing at these different times. From his Pass he was in a number of units, with at least 11 transfers. However, his glee at shooting his company CO might have had something to do with him being passed along. During the war and for about 6-7 years after the war he was quite a handful. Freikorps, Schwartze Reichswehr, and then worked as a bodyguard. His photos show him in a skin-tight suit with the bulging outline of a P 08 under the right front of his suit jacket. He had a carry permit (which I think I have) from the Schwartze Reichswehr, which had close ties with the riot police. His cell leader upon occasion carried a MP 18.

Then I got the Pass of the other Flamm=Pionier, and sure enough he started out in this same unit and after 6-8 weeks he was transferred to G=R=P=R and sent to its HQ in France (as my father was) for training at the training company at the HQ before then being sent to a field company for combat duty.

So on the basis of two Paesse I think I have this figured out. However, I would love to study three or dozens of G=R=P=R Paesse to nail this down and learn many other things.

I have a copy of one S=B Rohr soldier, a MGer, and from that I think I have figured out something about where Rohr got their MG troops from. Again, more Paesse would be great. There is so much information in these documents, and I think mostly reliable, compared to the rubbish so many write about WW I.

So the guy on your great certificate is: Leutnant der Reserve Alwin Zirkler, and the EK I was awarded 27. January 1917, and the certificate dated 22 July 1917 ? (I have had cataracts, and my eyes are a bit dodgy.)

Also, Chip, your guy is: Pionier Johanes Gruben, who got his EK II on March 10, 1918, with the certificate dated March 11, 1918 ?

These guys will be in the S=B Rohr roster that I have barely started. Thanks for your help. I will start a roster for S=B Nr. 1 and put the other guy in.

I know a German who would like to, as far as possible, recreate a roster spanning the whole German Army (Armies) of the Kaiserzeit. Not (quite) as crazy as it sounds; certainly not as crazy as a 4600 pound FW in the trenches.

Bob Lembke

[Chip]

Bob,

The document for Johanes Gruben is not mine. I had just found it in an old thread for Chris.

I do have an EKII document from Gardepionier Jakob Schl?sser of the 6.Kp. G=R=P=R. The document is dated 22.11.1917 and was issued by Sturmbatl. 16 of the 26.Landwehr Division and signed by a Major d. Lw. u. Rgtsf?hrer Pistorius. The division's poor combat record makes one wonder what pioneer Schl?sser was doing there. The division remained in a quiet sector throughout the entire war and was rated one of the worst because of it. Perhaps Schl?sser was there to try to get them interested in doing something. It was about the time the division captured its last prisoner of the war in 1917!

Chip

Edited July 6, 2007 by Chip

[Chris Boonzaier]

My other one is to Wilhelm Schott of the 5th Komp. He was a medic.

[Dave Danner]

Chris,

Die deutschen Sturmbataillone im Weltkrieg : Aufbau und Verwendung by Hellmuth Gruss

Verlag Berlin : Junker und D?nnhaupt, 1939 .

The MGFA in Potsdam has a copy. I'll try and get hold of it on Friday.

Regards

Glenn

Check page 183. The book is keyword searchable (though not very well) and I found Eiserne Kreuz at least 3 times on that page. Since it's 188 pages, there might be a list of awards near the end (or maybe numbers).

[Dave Danner]

"Rohr" gets tons of hits on at least 30 pages. Samples attached.

[Dave Danner]

Some more hits:

[Glenn J]

Chris,

the index as discussed.

Regards

Glenn

[Glenn J]

Page 2

[Glenn J]

Page 3

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am drooling already!!!!!

[Dave Danner]

Glenn,

Can you get the whole book? I don't know how MGFA works in terms of loaning things. If not, I can.

[Glenn J]

Dave,

I photocopied it at the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin yesterday. The MGFA's copy was out.

Regards

Glenn