Organisational Badges HJ Meisterschuetze

[medalnet]

How about this rare badge:

[XEN]

Hi, I don't like the look of this one. Can you post a picture of the reverse? I have a M1/63 Meistersch?tze and there are many differences when comparing it to the badge shown here. Don will be able to give you a definitive answer though I'm sure

[Scowen]

I'm afraid not. So far this is a badge I haven't had time to study......... However, I would also like to see the reverse please.

Cheers

Don

[medalnet]

...and here it is:

[medalnet]

Hi, I don't like the look of this one. Can you post a picture of the reverse? I have a M1/63 Meistersch?tze and there are many differences when comparing it to the badge shown here. Don will be able to give you a definitive answer though I'm sure

Would you be able to post yours here as well?

[XEN]

Yep, here it is. This is the best result I can get without glare from the flash ruining the picture. The gold wash has worn away partially but is still visible between the oak leaves on the outer wreath and on some of the leaves.

Edited July 7, 2007 by XEN

[Scowen]

Thanks Medalnet. I do not know much about this badge, however I would strongly expect to see an RZM mark & number on the reverse.

What do you think Xen?

Cheers

Don

[medalnet]

Certainly not my field of expertiese. A friend just got this one. Looks very much a high quality made badge to me.

[XEN]

Thanks Medalnet. I do not know much about this badge, however I would strongly expect to see an RZM mark & number on the reverse

Yes, I'd agree with you there Don. These are rare badges Medalnet. I've seen various figures for the amount awarded but all were within the range 500-600. It would certainly be worthwile for someone to fake them. I can't say whether your friend's badge is a fake but as Don says, the lack of RZM mark is certainly very worrying.

[student]

I have such a batch too.I can't beleave this is a fake.

student

[student]

Reverse

[XEN]

Reverse

This badge is going to need rock-solid provenance before being accepted as an original. No RZM and no MM - not good....

[Scowen]

I agree with Xen, I find it very difficult to believe that one of these without an RZM code could be original.....

Sorry

Don

[nesredep]

I agree with Xen, I find it very difficult to believe that one of these without an RZM code could be original.....

Sorry

Don

Helllo!

I agree.

Regards

Nesredep

[student]

Hello Gentlemen,

Did I glabe that it some things not indicate corresponded that if a counterfeiter makes itself already the effort to

imitate such a batch, why brings it then not also another RZM or a manufacturer mark to the rules?

(Hope that my translation-program did right?!?!)

student

[XEN]

Hello Gentlemen,

Did I glabe that it some things not indicate corresponded that if a counterfeiter makes itself already the effort to

imitate such a batch, why brings it then not also another RZM or a manufacturer mark to the rules?

(Hope that my translation-program did right?!?!)

student

You have a point of course. Why would someone fake the badge but somehow forget to add the MM? It is a moot point though because without proof that the badge existed in this configuration during the TR period your badge is always going to be in question. A rare badge such as the Meistersch?tze is deserving of some research so please let us know how you get on if you uncover some new information.

[Scowen]

And of course it may not have been made as a deliberate fake to deceive people. Badges have been made as copies for re-enactors & films costumes for many years, in which case the reverse would not need marking.

Xen,

As the H.J. & D.J. were both Gliederungen der NSDAP, surley all of their insignia & Leistungsabzeichen had to be RZM marked under the order of Dec 20th 1934? Am I correct in thinking that these badges up to the silver grade were introduced in 1936 which would discount any transitional pieces? And the gold (shown at the start of the thread was 1941, even later......

Cheers

Don

[XEN]

And of course it may not have been made as a deliberate fake to deceive people. Badges have been made as copies for re-enactors & films costumes for many years, in which case the reverse would not need marking.

Xen,

As the H.J. & D.J. were both Gliederungen der NSDAP, surley all of their insignia & Leistungsabzeichen had to be RZM marked under the order of Dec 20th 1934? Am I correct in thinking that these badges up to the silver grade were introduced in 1936 which would discount any transitional pieces? And the gold (shown at the start of the thread was 1941, even later......

Cheers

Don

Hi Don,

I've just been having a look at this and have found a couple of references which seem to add a new angle.

"HJ im Dienst" 1935 first edition 352p (there were at least 6 editions of this book. Edition 6 is marked as such on first page and I'm assuming that each successive edition was also marked. This would mean that I am looking at the first edition) shows three classes :

Anf?ngerklasse

Ausbildungsklasse

Sonderklasse

This early book is showing the existence of all of the classes which remained extant certainly until the end of 1942 (I have a HJ shooting book showing that a boy passed the Sonderklasse in November of that year). The terms Scharfsch?tze (silver grade) and Meistersch?tze (gold grade) would seem to be a revision made in the later years of the war (I have recently seen a HJ shooting book from 1943 showing this change).

Angolia states that the Ausbildungsklasse (silver wreath) was introduced in 1938 with the Sonderklasse (gold wreath) following in 1941. He doesn't sadly give a period reference and I don't have any to hand which talk specifically about these badges but if we take "HJ im Dienst" as a reference then we can see that all classes of the badge at least were in existence in 1935. It would then logically follow that the accompanying badges may also have been in existence. Why have three classes but only one badge? Odd....

Do you have a period reference for the introduction of the silver class Don? That would certainly give an answer to the question of whether there were indeed three different badges in 1935 as implied by "HJ im Dienst".

So, the (theoretical) logical conclusion is that a Sonderklasse badge could exist without RZM markings having possibly been made just prior to the introduction of the RZM at the end of 1934. This however means nothing without proof and anyway I would still expect to see a GES GESCH at least... The badge does look nicely aged though and, apart from the missing markings, strangely authentic which prevents me from saying 'definite fake' without proof.

Edited October 31, 2007 by XEN

[Scowen]

Do you have a period reference for the introduction of the silver class Don? That would certainly give an answer to the question of whether there were indeed three different badges in 1935 as implied by "HJ im Dienst".

Unfortunately not.

I'm going by Littlejohn's 1988 book on the H.J. (which I've just dug out again to check my memory) where he states that Schirach instituted the first badge in '36, two more (the silver & D.J.) in '38 & finally the gold in '41. He briefly mentions them in his earlier 1968 book but gives no real detail except to say that one came out in '36 & then two more in '38.....

Cheers

Don

[XEN]

Unfortunately not.

I'm going by Littlejohn's 1988 book on the H.J. (which I've just dug out again to check my memory) where he states that Schirach instituted the first badge in '36, two more (the silver & D.J.) in '38 & finally the gold in '41. He briefly mentions them in his earlier 1968 book but gives no real detail except to say that one came out in '36 & then two more in '38.....

Cheers

Don

Quick revision to my above post Don: I've never given much thought to these badges other than knowing what they are. If I'm honest I have to say that I had always believed Angolia's description to be correct. This discussion has prompted me to look a little deeper and in answer to your question about non-RZM or transitional pieces the answer is no, they can't have existed. It would definitely not have been possible for either the silver or gold class of the badge to have been around pre-RZM or indeed in the transitionary period because the three classes of shooting proficiency shown in the HJ shooting books carried by HJ and DJ boys led only to the award of one badge: the DJ badge or the basic HJ shooting badge.

Here's why:

all boys started in the Anf?ngerklasse. Once they had satisfied the marksmanship requirements in this class they were moved to the next highest group. The boys had to maintain the level of the next highest group otherwise they would be 'demoted' back down to the previous group. The aim was to reach the Sonderklasse. Once the standards required in the Sonderklasse had been met the boy was then eligible for the award of the basic HJ shooting badge. DJ leaders were also eligible to shoot for this badge. Angolia however describes the badges as follows:

Anf?ngerklasse (basic shooting badge)

Ausbildungsklasse (silver)

Sonderklasse (gold)

This isn't correct - certainly not up to and including 1941/42 anyway. I have a shooting book for a boy for that year and it still shows the three classes mentioned in 'HJ im Dienst' from 1935. The boy in question received only the basic HJ shooting badge (number 197326) after completing all three classes- not the gold badge as Angolia suggests. A logical conclusion of course otherwise there would be equal numbers of all grades of the badge around today and as we know this isn't the case.

So what were these other badges awarded for? I'm unaware of a special HJ shooting book showing any criteria for this. I wonder if they were awarded due to results achieved at organised shooting events - possibly at Bann or even Gebiet level. What does Littlejohn say about the award criteria for the gold and silver grades Don? Was there an award certificate or progress booklet similiar to the normal HJ/DJ shooting book? I've certainly never seen a booklet but I would imagine that some kind of award certificate for such a prestigious badge would have existed at least...

I will try to find confirmation for the introductory dates for the silver and gold classes.

Edited November 2, 2007 by XEN

[Scowen]

Great information Xen, thanks!

Unfortunately he doesn't give much info, but he does list what they had to do to get the badge. Here's what he states:

HJ Sch?tzen-Abzeichen

Firing five shots from a lying position with rifle supported on a sandbag, five from lying postion with rifle unsupported, & five from a kneeling position with unsupported rifle.

HJ Scharfsch?tzen-Abzeichen

Ten shots had to be fired from the same postions as above with, in addition, a further ten "rapid fire" from a standing, rifle unsupported, position.

HJ Meistersch?tzen-Abzeichen

The firing positions were as before, but a much higher score was required.....

Schiessauszeichnung des DJ

Conditions for award of this DJ badge are not known, but they may have been the same tests as for the HJ Rifleman's badge, but requiring a lower standard of performance.

Cheers

Don

[XEN]

Thanks Don. I posted the following on another site actually a while back after translating the requirements for each class from the boy's shooting book I mentioned earlier:

Shooting distance 50m. Target is changed after 5 shots. Target has 12 rings - outer ring worth 1 point and bullseye worth 12.

DJ leaders aged 14+ were eligible to shoot for this badge.

Anf?ngerklasse:

Prone position with weapon supported. Must achieve 25 points with no single shot being worth less than 4 points unless target is hit 5 times.

Prone position weapon unsupported. Must achieve 20 points with no single shot being worth less than 3 points unless target is hit 5 times.

Ausbildildungsklasse:

Prone position with weapon supported. Must achieve 35 points with no single shot being worth less than 6 points unless target is hit 5 times.

Prone position weapon unsupported. Must achieve 30 points with no single shot being worth less than 5 unless target is hit 5 times.

Sonderklasse:

Prone position with weapon supported. Must achieve 45 points with no single shot being worth less than 8 points unless target is hit 5 times.

Prone position weapon unsupported. Must achieve 40 points with no single shot being worth less than 7 points unless target is hit 5 times.

Kneeling position. Must achieve 30 points with no single shot being worth less than 5 points unless target is hit 5 times.

I'd love to find the regulation governing the silver and gold class of the badge as this would surely show how they were awarded.

Edited November 3, 2007 by XEN

[Scowen]

Excellent Xen! Very interesting. It would be great to find the extra info, perhaps it can be found in the Berlin Doc' centre?

Cheers

Don

[XEN]

Just a quick update on this one: over on another forum there is a chap showing his grandfather's HJ shooting badges - all three grades and with clear provenance I've fired off a PM to him asking whether he knows anything more about the award criteria for the silver and gold levels - when and under what conditions etc. If I get an answer I'll post it here with his permission. Meanwhile here is a scan of the badges. Interesting to see that the same award card was used for all levels. Also good to see the number awarded at that point.

[Scowen]

Very interesting Xen, I've never seen these before (not that I can say that I've been looking). As you say, it's interesting to see that they used the same cards & just rubber stamped the grade name on them.

Cheers

Don