general rank with red cross medal 1. class

[Komtur]

Hello forumites,

today I got this pic of a person in a general rank with the rare red cross medal 1. class. I have only seen one other foto of a person decorated with this (Generalstabsarzt der Armee von Schjerning). May be this is a high ranking medical officer too?

I believe to recognize:

neckorders

-Preu?en, Kronenorden 2. Klasse mit Schwertern

-?

-W?rttemberg, Friedrichsorden 2. Klasse mit Schwertern

-?

-?sterreich, Ehrenzeichen vom Roten Kreuz, 1. Klasse mit Kriegsdekoration

bar

-Preu?en Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse

-Preu?en, Roter-Adler-Orden 3. Klasse mit der Schleife

-Preu?en, Roter-Adledr-Orden 4. Klasse mit der Krone

-? (Preu?en, Rote Kreuz Medaille 2. Klasse?)

-Preu?en, Dienstauszeichnungskreuz f?r Offiziere

-Deutsches Reich, China-Denkm?nze

-Preu?en, Zentenarmedaille

-Sachsen, Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse

-Oldenburg, Friedrich-August-Kreuz 2. Klasse

-Sachsen-Meiningen, Ehrenzeichen f?r Verdienst im Kriege

-Hanseatenkreuz

-? (T?rkei, Liakatmedaille?)

on pin

-Schweden, Nordsternorden Kommandeur 1. Klasse

-Preu?en, Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse

-Oldenburg, Friedrich-August-Kreuz 1. Klasse

-Bayern, Milit?rverdienstorden Offizierskreuz mit Schwertern

-Preu?en, Rote Kreuz Medaille 1. Klasse

Greetings, Komtur.

[Komtur]

the bar

[Mike Dwyer]

I can't answer your question, but it sure looks like his Swedish Order of the Northern Star was pinned on as a last minute thought! Look how his three German pinback awards are neatly arranged in a pattern and his Swedish star is crooked and not centered on his pocket like it should be. Unless, of course, this was taken the day the Swedish order was awarded and that's where they had to put it because his coat had not been prepared by his tailor to accept another pinback award.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Mike Dwyer

[Komtur]

Fine observation Mike! There is somthing odd in this pic and you got the point. There is a difference in his prussian attitude, the correct mounting of all the other decorations and the crooked Nordstern star. Besides this, the Nordstern star for the commander 1st class belongs to the neck cross of this order. I can?t recognize the second and the fourth neck cross, but both seemed not to be the Nordstern . On the other hand I found only pictures of Nordstern knight- and grandcrosses, may be the Komtur is of other style? But that is more than unusual ...

Who can help?

[Guest Rick Research]

Senior medical general in the Reichsheer in 1924:

Generaloberstabsarzt (1.10.20) Professor Dr. Schultzen.

I'll sort out dates on awards and more promotion dates and be back. GREAT photo!

[Guest Rick Research]

Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Schultzen

born Goslar 1 November 1863 (entry below in 1908/09 German Orders Almanac)

died Berlin 18 January 1931 (he should be in the 1928 edition of "Wer Ist's?")

Oberstabsrazt 26.2.01 V2v

Generaloberarzt 10.09.08 A

Generalarzt 1.10.13 B

Generaloberstabsarzt 1.10.20

retired as Medical Inspector of the Reichsheer 1927/28 having been that at least since 1924. The passants under his shoulder boards indicate that he was retired when this photo was taken.

PK2X gazetted in Milit?r Wochenblatt 8.9.17

BMV-OX 11.9.15

WF2bX 27.11.15 as Chief of the Medical Section of the Prussian War Ministry (thanks to Daniel's W?rttemberg rolls work)

SMK 27.7.16 as the same (thanks to MY rolls work)

Glenn has the Kaiser Wilhelms Akademie Stammliste for much more but he's off for a while-- just wait and see what he'll be able to add eventually.

2nd neck cross must be Franz Joseph-Commander on war ribbon (shown in his 1924 Rangliste entry, below),

while the 4th is the 1916 Austro-Hungarian Malta Order (never shown in Ranglisten). The last medal on his bar (after Bremen Hanseatic Cross) is the Silver Imtiaz Medal with Sabers bar. What he has on either side of his XXV Years Service Cross are his Prussian Red Cross Medals 2nd and SHOULD BE his3rd Class-- but I think you are right and that is a steel "stay at home" colonial medal-- from the ribbon, I'd guess for SW Africa rather than China. He is not even wearing all his awards-- he had a Brunswick Ernst August 2nd and the L?beck Hanseatic Cross too which are NOT being worn-- suggesting this is a during-the-war medal bar he never bothered updating!

He had no foreign Orders in 1914.

[Komtur]

I love you all on this site Thanks magic Rick, and thanks Glenn (who sends me copies of the KWA Stammliste - about 650 pages! - a few weeks ago). You make me happy, because these medical officers are my favorites!

The most interesting decoration for me is in this moment the Red Cross Medal 1st class. As far as I know only about 260 awarded. All decorated persons up to 1913 can be found in the K?niglich Preu?ische Ordensliste. From 1913 to 1918 there is a list in Orden und Ehrenzeichen Nr.26 (August 2003) compiled by Sauerwald from the data of the Deutscher Reichsanzeiger and K?niglich Preu?ischer Staatsanzeiger. As I know him, he did the work more than exact - but there is no information about Schultzen! The Rangliste 1914 shows him with the 2nd class. Schultzen is not the first person not to be found in the mentioned sources. As Bannicke/Tewes discussed in Orden und Ehrenzeichen 37/2005 this could be because of spontaneous awards of the Kaiser in the war where no Beamter was on his side for documentation.

[Guest Rick Research]

We like to see nice things here.

I added in a couple of scans above. Typical of how tiny these things are in the originals-- notice that the emblem for his Prussian Crown Order 2nd with Swords is sideways-- both hilts are on the right side.

There is no such thing as a perfect roll, unfortunately. Oh, Lippe-Detmold from 1905 on is 99.9%, but there are so many gaps and errors

largely because ONE ancient clerk with bizarre handwriting was copying what another geriatric gnome had written oddly to him...

and then even printed period sources are quite surprisingly often WRONG. Rank Lists left things off. The Orders Almanac relied on the entries (probably handwritten again) from each listed person that make absolute gibberish of whether an award came from Schaumburg or Detmold.

So what we need is to see something REAL--like your photograph.

[Gerd Becker]

Also interesting is the combination RAO 4th class with crown and RAO 3rd class with bow. He obviously still wore the 4th class, so that everyone can see, that his 4th class had a crown, right? Or was there a way to signify the crown on the 3rd class somehow? I know none.

However, fantastic photo with the 1st class Red Cross Medal. I have never seen one worn on a uniform before. The ones, i have seen, were awarded to princesses and such.

[Komtur]

Also interesting is the combination RAO 4th class with crown and RAO 3rd class with bow. He obviously still wore the 4th class, so that everyone can see, that his 4th class had a crown, right? Or was there a way to signify the crown on the 3rd class somehow? I know none.

However, fantastic photo with the 1st class Red Cross Medal. I have never seen one worn on a uniform before. The ones, i have seen, were awarded to princesses and such.

Often the way of mounting the decorations on the bar is indeed not accordingly to the rules. But in this case it is correct: "Die Dekoration des Rothen Adler-Ordens mit der Krone ist nicht abzulegen, wenn dem Inhaber sp?ter eine h?here Klasse desselben Ordens ohne die Krone verliehen wird." AKO vom 29. Juni 1894 (aus Hoeftmann, Preu?ischer Ordensherold, zweiter Nachtrag von 1900).

Indeed, pics of persons decorated with the Red Cross Medal 1st class are hard to find, so here is another one . But I have seen unfortunately no more. If someone have one, please show it!

Generalstabsarzt der Armee Otto von Schjerning (by the way he is wearing the REO 3 with crown and the REO 2 with oak leaves with the star):

Edited July 24, 2007 by Komtur

[Gaffken]

Indeed, pics of persons decorated with the Red Cross Medal 1st class are hard to find, so here is another one wink.gif . But I have seen unfortunately no more. If someone have one, please show it!

Sorry guys--I realize this is probably not the most appropriate forum for posting this, but I rarely get to show it, so here's my seldom encountered cross (unfortunately unattributed...)

Gaffken

[ccj]

Hello forumites,

today I got this pic of a person in a general rank with the rare red cross medal 1. class. I have only seen one other foto of a person decorated with this (Generalstabsarzt der Armee von Schjerning). May be this is a high ranking medical officer too?

Greetings, Komtur.

Terrific photo.