EK 1939 Knight's Cross vs Grand Cross

[Troy Tempest]

When Hitler created the grade of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, why didn't he just use the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross as the highest grade of EK? Why was there a need to make a new high grade of the EK?

[Riley1965]

Did he ever do anything that made sense?

Just ask his Generals stuck fighting "His" war...

Doc

[Alex K]

Hi, the grand cross was always awarded for leadership actions which had a decisive impact on the war, and was awarded to high ranking officers only, that's why Goring received it for, I believe, the conquest of France, it was never awarded for bravery, this was true for all the grand crosses, 1813,70 and 1914.

As this was the case, and other "Imperial" or state bravery decorations had been discontinued, there was a need for a higher award than the EKI to bridge the gap from EKI to grand cross, the RK and it's subsequent additions was created, it was decreed that it could be awarded to any rank and not just officers.

That being said, many generals etc also received the RK as a reward for leadership and not combat in the field, Keitel was a good example, he was a staff officer and never a field commander (WWII)

Alex K

Attached a 1940 colour photo from Signal Magazine showing the complete (at that time) range. the swords and diamonds etc were added after this time

[Alex K]

Period Signal photo of the diamonds

[W McSwiggan]

Put simply - perhaps too simply - the Knight's Cross was created to fill the void left by the discontinuation of the Pour le Merite. As this was a Royal Prussian award directly connected to the aristocracy so disliked by Hitler - it went obsolete with the abdication and would be allowed to remain so along with the vast array of Imperial awards. Award criteria for the "PlM" & Knight's Cross were effectively the same at the beginning of the war. The first "upgrade" to the Knight's Cross was also parallel to the PlM in that they both here the addition of oak leaves to the ring. Award criteria were quite different however. Subsequent additions of swords and later diamonds followed patterns (design not intent) established by many Imperial awards sucn as the Prussian Red Eagle Order.

[DavidM]

Hello

You will have to excuse me, and bear with me on this one as I am still learning about WW2 RKs. The three RKs featured on the page scan from the 1940 edition of Signal, appear to what is described as the Rounder, (the two next each other, one being just an RK, the other having oaks with it), and the one at the top of the page which appears to have a definite dipping eye.

Are these RKs what they appear to be, as described above, or am mistaking them for known RKs?

Many thanks.

[Richard Gordon]

David

I believe these pictures have been discussed before. If I recall correctly, the RK's were deemed to be Juncker's (with slighly more finished inner corners - a common trait in Juncker RK's because of poor fit) and the Grand Cross dipping ring is a feature of the Grand Cross only.

Rich

[DavidM]

David

I believe these pictures have been discussed before. If I recall correctly, the RK's were deemed to be Juncker's (with slighly more finished inner corners - a common trait in Juncker RK's because of poor fit) and the Grand Cross dipping ring is a feature of the Grand Cross only.

Rich

Hello Richard

Thanks for that. I had a notion in the back of my mind that RKs that appear to have rounded inner corners are Junckers. Thanks for confirming that. As for the GC, please shoot me I looked at the scan and lumped in with the RKs. Clearly the size of it alone makes it a GC, which I am fully aware have dipping rings. I will shuffle off now and berate myself for sillyness and lack of observation on this one

[Alex K]

Following comments by David and Richard, I never spotted the features when I posted the pictures, but on a second look, the RK's certainly appear to be what have been described as "Rounders", I believe from many postings on this and other forums that they have been identified as post war fakes. Do these photo's throw it all up into the air again as these are actual wartime period images??

Alex

Edit http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20581&hl=

Edited August 4, 2007 by Alex K

[Richard Gordon]

Hello Richard

Thanks for that. I had a notion in the back of my mind that RKs that appear to have rounded inner corners are Junckers. Thanks for confirming that. As for the GC, please shoot me I looked at the scan and lumped in with the RKs. Clearly the size of it alone makes it a GC, which I am fully aware have dipping rings. I will shuffle off now and berate myself for sillyness and lack of observation on this one

David, we all have bad days.

One thing I don't recall is about the Oaks...which manufacturer? Juncker? S&L?? Godet??? Other????