Rosenberg Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Hi,I would like to show this and hear what you think.I have shown it on another forum and people didn?t think it was original.I hope to find someone who has a second one.It is marked L/12 on the back and from an RK recipient.If good or not,I like it as it combines two great awards..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 So from the missing comments I guess either you know the post I presented it on another forum or you just don?t like it.Anyway maybe someone replies on this questions:Given the chance it is a repro,why can?t I find it anywhere?Is it a common repro-artist behaviour to just produce one fake?And finally if self-made why would someone put a MM on the BACK of the case,where no one can see it?I see this is a Gentlemans forum,so I consider silence as being polite,maybe someone has thoughts....Best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus H Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 (edited) I've never seen the likes before ! If original it's a private purchase case of course and not issue as you well know.Can I see close up pictures of the hinges on the front of the case, the top half and bottom. Was the recipient killed and indeed and officer also ? I'd like to see pictures of the reverse hinges/hinge and the border thread around the base. If possible can you take a photo of the liner in the lid, ad a shot of the base without the awards in too. Odd that the base covering is crumpled up, has the base been taken out of the box frame ?Something like this is hard to assess, thats probably why no one responded.KrMarcus Edited September 7, 2005 by Marcus H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Although it looks as if it would suit a necklace or tiara as well as anything else, the case shown above is very similar in style to some private purchase items made for Imperial single awards and groups.A collector here in Germany has suggested that there is a bit of a cottage industry creating these out of any old jewelry cases for the collector market.The only one I have handled that has provenance from the recipient's family contained a four-piece medal bar, 1914 EK1, a privately made Turkish war medal and a matching ribbon bar. The case was marked to a jeweller in Cologne./David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus H Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Oh I agree 101% David, the same goes for the East German award packageing, small cardboard boxes and cases with fittings very similar to their wartime counterparts have and are being used.We'll see the subsequent pictures if available, but I must confess I think your along the lines of my intial thoughts, the size and proportions to the awards and the base covering make me think it's intentional use was not for these.KrMarcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 Thanks for your reponses!My pics are on probation @Marcus:All pictures asked for will be made by Sunday!Yes,you are right with the crumbeld up base covering,this comes along with some lose piping areas in the corners.The recipient was indeed killed as Leutnant d.R.@David:I was told that story of the cottage industry,but I can?t withstand my prior asked question ,who just makes one of these?That?s never been answered,you know if a company had made them I believe that at least more should exist.I also believe if there existed others I would have found them on some repro dealers site.Also hasn?t there been anyone up to now,who ever saw this thing.And please don?t get me wrong,I don?t want to make you believe anything,it?s rather I would like to hear fact based arguments on this specific piece,that?s why I really appreciate Marcus post.Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Rosenberg,If you consider the time slot of say five years in which combat awards of the Third Reich might have been presented in cases such as this (I deliberately ignore any post-war embellishments), and compare it to the last 80 to 100 years of German peacetime history, there were probably very many more cases made for jewelry and cutlery sets than for the few hundred or thousand top-level awards that wealthy German recipients would have purchased before May 1945.Given the state of Germany towards the end of the war, the ravages of time and the stigma attached to the bent cross in the post-war period, I would not be surprised if less-than-scrupulous individuals actively looked for boxes like this at flea markets and house clearances to make up for a lack of award cases. I am sure they are being used to enhance Imperial awards, which I would expect to find in a case like this more often than 1939-45 items.The box you show above might well have belonged to a KIA Leutnant as described. But as Marcus comments, the general shape and arrangement of the two items in it suggest that it might not originally have been made to contain them.Whatever the box may have been, it is certainly a better method of presentation than just keeping awards in old shoe boxes./David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 That?s the first reasonable approach on this apart from Marcus?s check and compare idea.From the point of view you introduced I must admit it sounds pretty reasonable in regard to total numbers of cases,and here is where I see the link to the point that the case looked like made for something else for it being too large,but then again is the L/12 MM a no-go,resulting in the case being fake.Here I must also admit that the case came to my family in the early eighties,so there is a period without real guarantee nobody changed or added something.Even though everything the RKT had was together including documents etc....So I see,my view is turning......thanks for that perspective...Best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Rosenberg,As I have no idea about the manufacturer's mark, I can't really comment on it. It is quite possible that it is real and the case was used for a set of fish knives or something similar.With an item like this, the problem I believe is the issue of provenance. If the case has been with your family for a long time, I assume you can be reasonably sure of whether it has been part of a group since then or not.Sadly, stories along the lines of "it belonged to an officer who was killed in action" frequently accompany both good and bad items, and as such should just be regarded as nothing but an interesting story. Whether they are true in the case of good items is also a moot point, as good items presented like this will always find a willing buyer.If anyone who really knows cases and packages well can show you an authentic case like yours, then the story might even contain a grain of truth.In the absence of provenance, preferably in the form of documented proof, my advice would be to forget the story, regardless of who told it to you, and evaluate the items alone. To another collector, what you have is worth the value of a DK, a close combat bar and an unknown case./David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 So here are a few detail shots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 (edited) .... Edited September 11, 2005 by Rosenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 (edited) The last picture had me think it can very well be a fake.Right in the middle of the pic you can see that there could be two parts of wood or alike material,one for each award.This itself be no problem,but they differ in size which really looks self made...now this one shows the material that "covers" upper and lower part Edited September 11, 2005 by Rosenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg Posted September 11, 2005 Author Share Posted September 11, 2005 (edited) backside....this shows one of which is at each side Edited September 11, 2005 by Rosenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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