Show us some navy daggers!

[Gustavo]

Gustavo: we should compare research data.

From naval Rank Lists, the directories of the Marine Offiziere Verband and its post-WW2 successor the MOH eV, Lohmann-Hildebrand and so on

I find no officer named Theodor Heim. If he was an Austro-Hungarian officer recalled for WW2... I didn't find him yet because the 1915 and 1916 K.k. Marine Rank Lists do not have an index.

The only F. Gabriel I find was

Friedrich Gabriel, Leutnant zur See 1.11.43 #107

(There was an Imperial Navy CHAPLAIN of the same name, but I don't think they carried daggers?)

Viertel was Kapit?n zS (W). After he died, his widow Alma remained in the MOHeV.

I don't know how you get anything out of the archives, whose standard line is usually that only next of kin are entitled to anything.

We get around that bureaucratic obstruction by using period sources.

Thanks Rick

For the 1937-1945 period, published ranglisten for all branches (Luft, KM, Heer, dont know about W-SS) are very imcomplete, as they include only aktiv officers, no Reserve, which were in the majority in all branches. The Theodor Heim data came from Wast, from the Offiziere z. V. (zurVerf?gung) files, which are also not included in ranglisten...

Fritz Gabriel is listed in the 1 sept 1944 Km Ranglist

I saw the Pfarrer you refer to in the Address list of Navy officers... but you are right, they didnt carry daggers

Edited April 3, 2008 by Gustavo

[Guest Rick Research]

Heim was never a German Imperial navy officer, so what was he "zV" FROM? Merchant Marine experience/equivalent rank under the Third Reich?

Examples of "on hand" information-- no waiting for months to hear from some bureaucrat who may decide it's none of your business wasting their time with frivolous requests anyway.

VIERTEL:

May 1914 Navy Rank List, as a Deckoffizier:

[Guest Rick Research]

VIERTEL: 1914-1918 Navy Honor Rank List:

Since he was never commisioned under the Imperial navy, his date as a Feuerwerks-Leutnant only shows in this entry. As an Ordnance Specialist, he was classified as a civilian "Beamter" by the Reichsmarine, so does not appear in their Rank Lists either. He is a "civil engineer" here NOT a member of the Engineer Officer (Ing.) Corps.

But under the Kriegsmarine, the (W) officer corps re-emerged, so here he is in 1936. 31 years to reach Kapit?nleutnant!

One advantage to original period sources is that their first owners often made useful notes in them!

[Guest Rick Research]

VIERTEL among his colleagues in 1936:

This sort of "group" information often helps with photos of the "from your dear friend looks like Zfqbagkdjwtte ? in memory of our service together, 19XX/XX" variety.

[Guest Rick Research]

VIERTEL: 1938 Navy Rank List with an accelerated promotion to compensate for all those Weimar years in-grade:

Lohmann-Hildebrand back in the 1960s (not telling everyone their classified information is nobody's business forever) showing final assignment of the war:

and wartime career details, with birthplace and death date:

Despite the fact that this data was PUBLISHED more than 40 years ago, the standard archival response is that it is all Top Secret until the year 2756-- and still won't be any of our business then. Tch tch.

[Guest Rick Research]

There are other contemporary sources which get around bureaucratic obstruction and delays. Such as the Marine Offiziere Hilfe e.V. membership directories.

1960:

[Guest Rick Research]

MOH eV 1960: members' birthdays and wives' birthdays, keyed to residences and occupational sections:

The German navy is much much easier and quicker to research than the army. This took about half an hour.

All much easier to ask about a named blade here on this website in real time before buying a ?5000 sword that turns out to have been a Seewehr officer's who spent his war counting jam tins in Kiel.

This on hand information at least indicates whether a named blade's original owner CAN be easily researched, and whether it might be worthwhile to try doing so elsewhere.

And, of course, Research Gnomes work very cheaply. (Free.) All we ask is posted scans and a story.

[Gustavo]

Thanks Rick for scanning these pages. Very interesting.

I also have Lohmann & Hildebrand and the naval officer address list from ?37, as well as the rank lists. And yet, i?m still missing a good amount of officers. I only identified Theodor Heim when WAST answered me. The designation "zur Verf?gung" does not necessarily refer to having been in the merchant marine, but to having been "made available" and recalled to active duty from retirement or similar status (Officers a. D. etc)

Unfortunately Kriegsmarine officer records (as well as NCO and soldier records) are managed by WASt in Berlin, the branch of the Bundesarchiv which is strictest re. the datenschutz, obtaining permission from survivors etc. Having said that, different officials can give you different responses. In my opinion, you can never be sure you have the right officer identification without cross checking with the relevant branch of the Bundesarchiv.

As mentioned before Reserve offiziere are NOT listed in printed ranglisten. We know the amount of reserve officers in the kriegsmarine was much smaller than in the Heer and Luftwaffe, but is still relevant. I dont believe Kriegsoffiziere are listed either.

[vestae]

Hello All,

Whoooo just a superb navy dagger !

Congratulation

Sebastien.

[Guest Rick Research]

Luckily for Imperial naval blade collectors, all reserve officers were listed in their Rank Lists and the monumental Honor Rank List.

[Gustavo]

Luckily for Imperial naval blade collectors, all reserve officers were listed in their Rank Lists and the monumental Honor Rank List.

Thanks Rick for all your info. Perhaos its time to start looking into imperial daggers and swords... Tom Wittmann?s navy book is a good reference for these too

[norwest78]

Plain blade navy. Nice gold toning to portepee.

[nesredep]

Hello!

Stunning tread.Beautiful daggers,thanks for sharing.

All the best

Nesredep

[Gustavo]

Hello!

Stunning tread.Beautiful daggers,thanks for sharing.

All the best

Nesredep

Very nice dagger Norwest, and beautifully photographed... taking good pics of daggers, medals etc is an art in itself. You seem to have the lighting right. I myself have to take 4 or 5 photos for each I keep.

Plain blades are supposed to be rare. Perhaps another member can comment on that

[Gustavo]

Playing with light conditions, just before sunset

last

Edited April 6, 2008 by Gustavo

[vestae]

Incredible daggers !

congratulation again !

Sebastien.

[nesredep]

Playing with light conditions, just before sunset

last

Hello!

Just amazing.

Nesredep

all the best

[Gustavo]

Heres an interesting portrait photo from my collection, showing a Kriegsmarine officer who has not yet changed the pommel on his 1929 model Reichmarine dagger, following 1938 regulations.

Detail:

[Gordon Williamson]

I'd say the plain blade KM daggers are definitely rarer. I seem to see at least 10-20 engraved blades for every plain blade. Doesn't seem to translate into value though as the prices don't seem all that different to normal etched blade daggers.

Plain blade, non-maker marked, with rope scabbard bands.

[nesredep]

I'd say the plain blade KM daggers are definitely rarer. I seem to see at least 10-20 engraved blades for every plain blade. Doesn't seem to translate into value though as the prices don't seem all that different to normal etched blade daggers.

Plain blade, non-maker marked, with rope scabbard bands.

Hello!

Yes I think these are rarer.Nice in good shape Gordon.Thanks fos share.

All the best

Nesredep