A British War Medal Found in Oberstdorf Fleamarket

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents

while looking in a display case on a traders table in a Fleamarket in Oberstdorf, Bavaria.

I found the following B.W.M.

It was issued to:

118340 PNR. J. FARRELL. R. E.

Its had a few knocks, but now rest comfortably in its new home in Transylvania.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited September 29, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Ulsterman]

almost home-another Irish ex-pat!

Well done

[leigh kitchen]

Had a quick look at CWGC site, he does'nt appear to be there.

I could'nt get him on the MIC in the National Archives site - search on his number & you get 6 other men, search on "J Farrell" & you get at least 10 pages, although there is a J Farrell of the RE on the first page, but with a different number. Search on number alone & on there are 6 men with that number.

I have'nt done any other checking up re the number allocation etc

Edited October 4, 2007 by leigh kitchen
punkchewashun etc

[Michael Johnson]

There are 1 Pnr. James Farrell, 4 Pnr. Joseph Farrell, and probably some Johns as well.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Leigh & Mike,

thanks for the contributions with regard Pioneer Farrell.

Kevin in Deva

[leigh kitchen]

Only J Farrell of the RE that I've found in Soldiers Died is:

James Farrell, Dvr. 780, Enlisted Smethwick, Staffs, Residence Newcastle, Staffs, died 15/5/15 at "Home", 3/1st N. M. Field Coy, RE.

So quite possibly nothing to do with your man, but I'm just checking through....

73 x J. Farrells in total listed in Soldiers Died, some are ex - RE, none with serial number as per the medal.

Only one man listed in Soldiers Died with the number 118340, & that's a Percy Finch of the MGC, formerly RASC.

Only one J Farrell listed in Officers Died, 2/lt John Leo Farrell of 17th Bn Royal Irish Rifles, KIA 16/3/18.

So our man does'nt crop up at first glance on CWGC or in Soldiers Died, though who knows, he could be one of those listed but without any obvious means of cross ref'ing

Edited October 5, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[Graham Stewart]

More than likely that his MIC is one of the thousands that went missing during the transfer from the Medal Office in Droitwich to the NA, or PRO as it was then. Apparently the transfer took place during high winds and a load of black bin liners they were stored in fell from the transport and split open and were scattered to the four winds.

Graham.

[Kev in Deva]

More than likely that his MIC is one of the thousands that went missing during the transfer from the Medal Office in Droitwich to the NA, or PRO as it was then. Apparently the transfer took place during high winds and a load of black bin liners they were stored in fell from the transport and split open and were scattered to the four winds.

Graham.

Defys comment

Kevin in Deva

[leigh kitchen]

More than likely that his MIC is one of the thousands that went missing during the transfer from the Medal Office in Droitwich to the NA, or PRO as it was then. Apparently the transfer took place during high winds and a load of black bin liners they were stored in fell from the transport and split open and were scattered to the four winds.

Graham.

Is it the WFA who are now custodians of the orignal MIC's, seeing as how grateful authorities could'nt run to providing storage for them since they were put on line?

I take that they will carry out checks if requested - as a side note it would be interesting to see what's written on the unscanned backs of some of those cards - addresses to which the medals were sent, that sort of thing by the sound of it.

[Graham Stewart]

The W.F.A. are the custodians of the MIC's under certain proviso's from the NA and they're currently located in a secret location under going 'digital' archiving. The intention is that the W.F.A. will provide a digital copy both front and rear(if containing information) of the MIC on request, but the cost will be slightly higher in for the upkeep of the MIC's, which will require secure storge in fire proof cabinets.

The current on-line MIC 's are a poor substitute for the original thing and so these new digital copies will look something like the Australian Records, although I believe the W.F.A. might not be able to give an on-line research facility, due to the terms in which they were taken into custody.

Currently our efforts to provide facilities on-line pale somewhat when having viewed those service record's from Australia and Canada. Those service records which do survive in the UK are currently stored somewhere in Cheshire in an old salt mine in preservation conditions, but there is currently no plan to have them digitally copied, which in the view of many could be a huge mistake on behalf of the government.

The same can also be said for the none use of current DNA screening on the recovery of bodies from the Western Front, which would mean many being positively identified. Alas for some unknown reason the U.K. government won't allow this on the excuse of 'cost', yet I believe the same techniques, at which 'cost' was no problem was used during the uncovering of mass graves in Bosnia.

Graham.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Graham

Not going to far "Off Topic" with regards the medal I posted at the start of the thread, I would imagine the most simple reason it is classed as "cost" prohibative, as compared to the Bosnian scenario, would be that there is probably a better chance to get a D.N.A. match between the unfortunate victims in Bosnia, due to the availability of living relatives to give comparason samples to match to the victims D.N.A., and the relatively short timescale involved in the burial period as well, of course a lot depends on if the D.N.A. samples have suffered any contamination or degradation depending upon the area and conditions they were buried in.

Whereas the D.N.A. from W.W.1 era bodies still being recoveded from the ground, after so many years scince W.W.1 ended with degradation of the D.N.A. samples are extremely small, also the living gene pool of family members, due to time would have suffered reducement as well. Making positive identification extremely hard.

Kevin in Deva.

[leigh kitchen]

Also, Bosnia, Kosovo etc involve more recent events & require use of DNA as part of investigation of crime, so databases of victims & their surviving relatives DNA are feasible & required in order to identify them with a view to gathering evidence to support court proceedings against accused.

I don't know what the costs would be concerning taking & comparing DNA samples from WWI "unknowns", but making use of using such samples would be more difficcult - the opportunities for making direct comparisons between a specific WWI unknown & suspected descendant are'nt going to present thmselves too often - perhaps a database of their DNA would be built as they are recovered & be made made available to descendants who are motivated enough to give their own DNA for comparison via a commercial outfit?

It's going to be very hit & miss, & of course so many unidentified remains are buried as such already, with the added diffculty of not even knowing the nationality of some of them so for once I can see authorities objection in this case, 'tho of course the authorities seem quite keen on taking DNA samples from all of us.......

Driver Farrell - there's nothing to indicate that he's a fatality, he's not readily available as a MIC, so check for his service records & any pension record I suppose.

[jasonpfarrell]

hello and good day, my great grandfather was 118340 pnr j farrell r. e. and i also have a medal for "THE GREAT WAR FOR CIVILISATION 1914 - 1918" my mother found the medal today and i'd thought i'd give it a little google search and you guys come up and thought it may be of some interest to you,

many thanks, jason farrell

[jasonpfarrell]

also the medal at the top of this topic i remember my father selling that in the 1980s in romford essex uk to a collector in the market,

[Mervyn Mitton]

Jason - welcome to GMIC. Can you remember any further info. about either medal that will assist members ? Mervyn

[paddywhack]

had a quick look for the mic and luckly it wasnt all lost in the move!the card gives what he was entitled to and all the info you would get on the regular medal card! plus theres 16 pages of service records on anscetry! if kev or jason want a copy just send me a pm!!

jason could you post pics of the victory medal you have? be great to be able to reunite them )though hes also entitled to the 15 star but any reunite is great!!)

Edited August 28, 2012 by paddywhack

[jasonpfarrell]

hello, i can't remember much more about it as i was about 13 years old at the time(39 now), but my father had quite a few at the time and i remember looking through the red velvet lined box with them all in, sadly my father passed away last february so most information on the medal is lost, but i will ask my mother if she can remember anything about them, i have attached a photo of the medal, so you guys can have a look for yourselves

many thanks

jason

p.s. would love a copy to show my mother the certificate.

[Noor]

This card is for Silver War Badge, not for regular WW1 pair or 14/15 trios Medal Index Card.

I am sure he had SWB as well. Paddy, can you please have a look at the SWB roll as well, my own laptop crashed and the one what I am using is pain in the ..... .

[Noor]

Interesting.... he enlisted 1st September 1915 and already on the 17th September he landed in France!!!

[Graham Stewart]

There appears to be an error in his Labour Corps numbering as the NA website has him as '299182' Pnr James Farrell, L.C. and not '293182' Pnr James Farrell.

As correctly stated he did receive a Silver War Badge and is Discharged with 'Sickness' on the 19th March 1918 i.a.w.

Army Order 265/1917 II - Silver War Badge

1 - In view of the provision of the Military Service(Review of the Exceptions)Act 1917, His Majesty the King has been pleased to approve of the amendment of the conditions governing the award of the Silver War Badge granted under Army Orders 316 of 1916 and 50 of 1917.

2 - Under the amended conditions the badge will, subject in ever case to the approval of the Army Council, be issued only to the individual specified below, who have served with the military forces subsequent to the 4th August 1914;-

(a) - Those who having served as officers and being still of military age, have retired, resigned or relinquished their commissions.

i - After service overseas in the armed Forces of the Crown, on account of disablement or ill-health caused otherwise than by misconduct.

It would also appear, that as with all Pioneer units during the Great War, he has been transferred from the R.E. to the Labour Corps on it's formation in 1917 with whom he has been renumbered and prior to Discharge has been serving with the Labour Corps, Southern Command.

His R.E. number is also interesting and because of his virtual instant arrival in France on 17th September 1915, after having enlisted on the 1st September 1915, that he may actually have been a pre-war regular.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Graham Stewart

[Kev in Deva]

This card is for Silver War Badge, not for regular WW1 pair or 14/15 trios Medal Index Card.

I am sure he had SWB as well. Paddy, can you please have a look at the SWB roll as well, my own laptop crashed and the one what I am using is pain in the ..... .

But his entitlement is marked on the card in the area of the red ink-stamped box:-

VICTORY :

BRITISH :

15 STAR :

Halo Jason,

welcome to the G.M.I.C., do you happen to have a picture of the gentleman in question?

(and of course, thanks to our other members for their imput.)

Kevin in Deva.

[Noor]

Hopefully we can hear soon medals reunite news and this medal, what had been away from the family, can find his way back where it should belong .