EK 1914 innies and outies

[coastie]

I have several 1914 EK2's with oak leaves that the leaves are concaved and some that are convexed. Was this artistic license or was there a reason for it?

Is there a database/catalog of known makers with a photo of the style of cross each one produced, or to possibly answer my own question did each maker: KAG, KO et. al. had many different cores to work with?

[coastie]

Here are some examples: Concaved Oak Leaves on the Left, Convexed on the right

[George Stimson]

I would wager that it was simply artistic preference.

[joe campbell]

I would wager that it was simply artistic preference.

←

tool and die craftsman-even in the mundane world

of hammers, bottle caps, and hexhead bolts-are

often pretty talented folks.

stir in some "jewelry" makers and some government

guidelines, and you will get a wide variety of variances

'mongst these folks.

i like the outies better myself.

joe

[PKeating]

I know the management here shan't mind if I tell you that a couple of our moderators, who are members here too, have been building a 1914 EK2 database: http://www.militariacollecting.com/index.php?showforum=313.

PK

[Bill Garvy]

What a marvellous observation, and one I, quite frankly, had overlooked! I too would be quite curious to see if there was consistency in this build characteristics by manufacturer.

I also want to thank Mr. Keating for the acknowledgement of our efforts regarding our Iron Cross database on the Militaria Collecting Forum, which is evolving into quite an extensive visual and textual reference for all collectors of the Iron Cross. I would urge those of you who are not members to register (it's free) to avail yourself of this valuable reference tool.

For those of you who are not members of the M.C.F., I have taken the liberty of compiling a listing of the Iron Cross 2nd Class manufacturers we already have in our database, and whether these have convex (outies) or concave (innies) oak leaves on the reverse.

HB convex

M convex

Z (over-stamp) concave

Z concave

KO convex

E.W convex

K.A.G. convex

LW convex

LW (with a D on small ring) concave

MM convex

G concave

G 800 concave

W & S convex

S-W convex

K convex

R convex

Fr convex

FR convex & concave

WuS convex

S convex

A convex

III convex

I.R 950 convex

B convex

LW half moon & crown convex

W concave

MFH convex

WILM convex

+M+ convex

RSCH convex

"square" convex

CD800 convex

As you can see, the majority of the maker marked crosses were convex (25 of 29), and only one manufacturer (FR) had both convex and concave oak leaves.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Bill Garvy

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Interesting the minority is Concave, great observation.

[Bill Garvy]

Here's an unmarked example with an "innie" for the middle leaf, and two "outies" for the leaves left and right. . . hmmm. . . Edited September 20, 2005 by Bill Garvy

[coastie]

Here's an unmarked example with an "innie" for the middle leaf, and two "outies" for the leaves left and right. . .  hmmm. . .

←

That is rather unique I haven't considered that possiblity, will have to relook again at mine.

[PKeating]

Like Bill Garvy, I must confess to never having really registered this aspect of concave and convex oakleaves...and I have been collecting the Iron Cross since I was a nipper! I suppose I must have noticed it but it just didn't register. Thank you for awakening me to something new! There you go! I learned something really valuable today here on GMIC! Just goes to show that there's always something new to learn, doesn't it? Here's an early issue 1870 with one "innie" and two "outies". I haven't scanned any of my other 1870s, except for obverse views but I'm just chucking this one in here because it's from the 1870s.

PK

[PKeating]

Obverse view, for those of you who might want the pics for reference.

[coastie]

Thanks Guys..That's kind of where I want to go with these. There are so many variants with the Oak leaves and crowns that makes me wonder if a good data base could be developed that one can tell just by looking at the devices one can tell who made them.

[Guest Darrell]

Thanks Guys..That's kind of where I want to go with these. There are so many variants with the Oak leaves and crowns that makes me wonder if a good data base could be developed that one can tell just by looking at the devices one can tell who made them.

←

Innies and Outies ... a new Acrynom

Interesting stuff Charlie. I had never even noticed this before ....

[Tony J]

Bill,

Very interestig study. I will ahve to look at mine and see if I can add anything to the list.

Where are you located in the Chicago area? I usually set up at the Hillside show and the Concord Show in Northlake. Maybe we can meet up and compare notes.

Tony

[joe campbell]

tony j.

be careful.

be VERY,VERY careful.

mr. bill could potentially organize you within

an inch of your life....

seriously, i wish i could be there to swap stories....

one of the nicest people i know!

joe

this really IS a "new mousetrap". judging by

the number of "gee, i never thought about that before"

responses - including mine - i'd say we've got something

new and different here.

[Bill Garvy]

Tony,

I reside on the Far North-side, (West Rogers Park, Touhy & Western) St Hilary's, where my eleven year old son is in 6th grade. I have been known to attend the Northlake and Hillside shows. I will look for you. I am easy to spot, just ask Dr. Joe, the man in-the-know . . .

Hey Joe, got any more of those physician's samples?

Just asking. . .

[Tony]

I found this one in my collection which I didn't notice on the above list. It is marked HW and has convex oakleaves.

Tony

[Motorhead]

Good job,Bill I noticed that before,but I never thought it would be interesting for anyone....big error! All in all it's a good tool when it comes to identify a maker....in some cases!

Micha

[coastie]

Poking around the other forums a member commented the makers bought cores from other makers. Was this true? if so it throws a monkey wrench in my research.

[Bill Garvy]

Cores and frames. . . Edited September 27, 2005 by Bill Garvy

[coastie]

Hmmm...So as a tool to ID specific makers may be a lost cause. Although could be useful as data is gathered to determine if the large volume makers "out sourced" to sub contractors?

[Bill Garvy]

Yes, I think so. . .

[Motorhead]

Of course it's possible that makers bought parts from others.....but-I have a few 1914EKs 2nd class to compare-and I have handled a lot more than I have in my collection now.Saying to compare the cores,frames and maker marks is worthles.....Uhhh!!Have you ever had a "G" in your hand? Or a "WILM"? I've got a few of both......The most makers have got a "typical" core!The frame is a bigger problem,there you can find a lot of different variations.But anyway-Who's ever the oppinion that these comparisons are useless....Ok! But have a look at KMST 1st.class and KM 2nd class-surprised?

Micha

[coastie]

Of course it's possible that makers bought parts from others.....but-I have a few 1914EKs 2nd class to compare-and I have handled a lot more than I have in my collection now.Saying to compare the cores,frames and maker marks is worthles.....Uhhh!!Have you ever had a "G" in your hand? Or a "WILM"? I've got a few of both......The most makers have got a "typical" core!The frame is a bigger problem,there you can find a lot of different variations.But anyway-Who's ever the oppinion that these comparisons are useless....Ok! But have a look at KMST 1st.class and KM 2nd class-surprised?

Micha

This is what I wanted to see, if opinions were strong enough to support the idea of Id'ing cores by style to determine manufacturers. The "innie/outie" observation was to get the "blood" going and to see 1914 EK's in a new light, they seem to have been shunted off to the Collcectors orphanges because there are so many of them.

[landsknechte]

One more for the list:

H Convex