Luftwaffe ribbon bar that has been driving me crazy for years

[webr55]

This ribbon bar has been in my collection for some years, and it continues to drive me crazy : EK2, HHOX, SA3aX/SA3bX, HH, Hindenburg, 2x Lw DA (both eagles gold), Sudeten, ÖM3K. The problem is that the second eagle appears to have been replaced, whether by the wearer or later is unknown. So logically, this guy either had a) 12-17 years of service (one gold, one silver eagle) or b) 25+ years (two gold eagles).

Lw research is always difficult, with no ranklists. But this MIGHT have been a General. So I have tried to look through the Generals' bios for Lw Generals that I could not exclude with having had other awards, wrong service time etc. I did NOT exclude those that are neither in the incomplete SA3X or HHOX lists (and the bios books are unfortunately no reliable source for awards). So here is my list for those with 12-17 years of service:

1) GL Hans Hofmann

2) GL Hans Hückel, HHOX, WW1 observer

3) GL Werner Junck

4) GL Karl Kettembeil

5) GL Eckard Krahmer, relatively improbable because he was an attaché?

6) GL Ernst Krüger

7) GL Walter Lackner, WW1 flyer

8) GL German Unger, WW1 flyer

9) GM Walter Barenthin

10) GM Arthur Brandt, HHOX

11) GM Hans-Henning Baron von Fölkersamb

12) GM Gotthardt Kapuste

13) GM Johannes Missfelder, WW1 flyer

14) GM Johannes Müller-Andriesen, SA3bX 24.8.17

15) GM Werner Mundt

16) GM Hans Poetsch, WW1 flyer

17) GM Karl Schuchardt

18) GM Carl Schultze-Rhonhof

19) GM Hans von Weech, Thuringian native

20) GM Werner Zech, WW1 flyer

I would be glad if any of these could be excluded by other sources, especially with the new award lists around. Thanks in advance!

Chris

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

Back:

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

No match in the Reichsheer--

which means either a SchuPo officer under Weimar, or the second eagle should be silver and this was an (E) officer.

I don't find any match with what we have now-- which is of course crippled by lack of Luftwaffe data.

Suspects list can have the following deleted

1) GL Hans Hofmann

2) GL Hans H?ckel, HHOX, WW1 observer

3) GL Werner Junck

4) GL Karl Kettembeil

5) GL Eckard Krahmer, relatively improbable because he was an attach?

6) GL Ernst Kr?ger

7) GL Walter Lackner, WW1 flyer

8) GL German Unger, WW1 flyer (awards do not match)

9) GM Walter Barenthin

10) GM Arthur Brandt, HHOX

11) GM Hans-Henning Baron von F?lkersamb (awards do not match)

12) GM Gotthardt Kapuste

13) GM Johannes Missfelder, WW1 flyer (awards do not match)

14) GM Johannes M?ller-Andriesen, SA3bX 24.8.17

15) GM Werner Mundt

16) GM Hans Poetsch, WW1 flyer

17) GM Karl Schuchardt (awards do not match)

18) GM Carl Schultze-Rhonhof (awards do not match)

19) GM Hans von Weech, Thuringian native (awards do not match--Saxon)

20) GM Werner Zech, WW1 flyer (awards do ot match--W?rttemberger)

[webr55]

Just in case, this is my list for LW Generals with 25+ years, maybe some of these can be excluded:

1) GL Erich Kressmann

2) GL Heinrich Niehoff

3) GM Erich v. Falkenhayn, WW1 flyer, SA3aX 3.8.1916

4) GM Heinrich-Sigismund von der Heyde, WW1 flyer

5) GM Rudolf Petrauschke

6) GM Friedrich Römer

7) GM Aldo Saul, WW1 flyer

8) GM Hermann Stutzer, WW1 flyer, might have been Reichsheer 1926-28, later a judge

Or maybe some of these are in the expanded HHOX lists?

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

Suspects list can have the following deleted

Thanks!

[Guest Rick Research]

Exclusions from the other bunch =

1) GL Erich Kressmann (awards do not match)

2) GL Heinrich Niehoff (awards do not match-- was Vizepr?sident of the Luftschutz 1936-38)

3) GM Erich v. Falkenhayn, WW1 flyer, SA3aX 3.8.1916

4) GM Heinrich-Sigismund von der Heyde, WW1 flyer (awrds do not match)

5) GM Rudolf Petrauschke (awards do not match)

6) GM Friedrich R?mer (awards do not match)

7) GM Aldo Saul, WW1 flyer (awards do not match-- Legion Condor)

8) GM Hermann Stutzer, WW1 flyer (awrads do not match-- had HOH3X buit apparently was a M-Strelitz native)

Von Falkenhayn had the HOH3X and SA3aX but Neal O'Connor did NOT list him among the Hamburg cross recipients. Neal missed anyone who was not decorated while in a flying unit, since he ran down the rolls looking at units and not names, but since vF was in aviation the entire time the HH was being awarded, Neal should have found him in the Hamburg Roll.

I suspect, whether the ribbon bar was originally 25/12 or 12/4, that this was a younger officer, who possibly only made Oberst and so is among the Vast Invisible Majority of the Luftwaffe.

So far.

We really really need the Hamburg Roll here.

[webr55]

Thanks! That greatly reduces the list of suspects. Yes, he might have been an Oberst, but at the moment I'm trying to single out the Generals at least. I think we can safely discount Krahmer as well, he was an attaché during the entire WW2, mostly in Spain, so would certainly have had Spanish awards. So at moment, this leaves us with:

1) GM Erich v. Falkenhayn, HHOX, SA3aX

2) GL Hans Hofmann

3) GL Hans Hückel, HHOX

4) GL Werner Junck

5) GL Karl Kettembeil

6) GL Ernst Krüger

7) GL Walter Lackner

8) GM Walter Barenthin

9) GM Arthur Brandt, HHOX

10) GM Gotthardt Kapuste

11) GM Johannes Müller-Andriesen, SA3bX

12) GM Werner Mundt

13) GM Hans Poetsch

I think it would be really improbable if our guy was listed in neither the HHOX nor the SA3X list. I THINK we should find him in at least one of the lists.

Could you double-check the career of Arthur Brandt? My impression is he might have had 18 years of service, but I'm not sure.

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

I am fairly sure that Brandt's medal bar actually turned up for sale someplace in the last couple of years, with award documents sold separately, and has probably been posted someplace. I remember being surprised, since he went over to DDR service, but apparently had left his "stuff" home with his family in the Western Zone before starting his third career. Maybe featured in a "DDR Generals" thread?

Try googling his name if it wasn't here. I never have any luck doing that. Typing in his names even on a search HERE ends up with an insane 30 pages of "matches."

But another reason I don't think it is ANY of the above is what you say-- they can't be missing off BOTH the Hohenzollern and Albert rolls, and none had EITHER unless already noted above.

[webr55]

Even sophisticated ways of searching don't turn up anything on Brandt.

Just to press this a little further, I have some even more remote suspects:

GL Hans Behrendt, WW1 flyer

GL Robert Carlsen

GL Ernst Dörffler

GdF Martin Fiebig, WW1 flyer

GdF Helmuth Förster, HHOX and SA3aX, but the ribbon bar in his picture does not seem to fit...

GdF Wilhelm Haehnelt, WW1 flyer

GL Wilhelm Haenschke

GL Walter Heling

GdF Dr. Robert Knauss, WW1 flyer

GL Alexander Kolb

GL Otto Kühne, WW1 Navy (had HH acc. to RL 1918)

GL Karl-Albrecht Mensching, WW1 flyer

GL Wilhelm Süßmann

GM Friedrich-Wilhelm Wichard, WW1 flyer

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[Nicolas7507]

Pretty unlikely, but could both LW eagles have been replaced? If they were Heer eagles before, later Generalmajor (posthum) Günther von Dewitz-Krebs would be a perfect match with HOH3X, EK1, SA3aX, HH, ÖM3K.

 

He died on 05.06.1940 in France, but could have received his Wiederholungsspange before that date.

 

Maybe you already found a match since the last post was made 14 years ago?

Best 

Nicolas

[webr55]

A very interesting idea! Hmmm... But this would mean that someone replaced both eagles. Both the one with prongs visible and the one with prongs behind the backing. That person would then have removed the entire backing... somehow, it doesn't look that way. Actually, after all these years, I'm inclined to think the second eagle just fell off and was replaced by the wearer himself. This would mean 25+ years of service. But yes, not confirmed. 

 

I did re-post this bar later on, in 2013. These must have been some of the last comments by Rick, he suggested Lw-Oberst (E) Schumburg - who however didn't get the EK Spange according to his file: 

 

 

 

Mystery remains unsolved until today.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by webr55