EK 1939 New fake, old fake, or bogus mark?

[dond]

Thoughts? I know the mark is bad but what about the cross?

[dond]

If it is a fake do we know where it originates?

[Motorhead]

I don't like what I see-but please show us a good pic of the obverse.

Micha

[dond]

best I've got right now.

[dond]

70 views and only one opinion....

[Mike]

I'll add what we know so far --

--It's a Shinkle Form

--It's multi piece construction

--It's Magnetic

--Slight Rust showing on Core

--High ramp sided Swastika

--and the Beading has damage and wear

--It looks to be Silver..no sign of being plated

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--Pin doesn't match any known fake or real examples

(Ben found one that's close and has a Pin that extends over the Hinge) http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...d=1#post2375354

--No sign of hinge or "C" catch being re-soldered

--It has been repainted (not well either)

[Mike]

I'd like to thank Don for posting it here and trying to help me ID it . I've checked all my reference books and searched through the Forums and just can't match it with any known Fake or Real EK's.

I am not paying any attention to the engraved 20 since we all know it's not a Zimmermann .

Some must have engraved that after the War for whatever reason ..

The hardware does not match any Schinkle I've ever seen ..here are a few measurements --

Edited January 4, 2008 by Mike

[Mike]

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[Mike]

weight --

[Mike]

close up of Swastika

[Mike]

date

[Mike]

left side

[Mike]

I used a magnifying glass to get the close up ..that's why the lint shows

Also , the lighting gives it a copper or brass look that doesn't show under normal light

[Mike]

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[Mike]

I thought I'd add this ... I?m starting to wonder ---Could this be a pre-production or transitional piece ?

I?d have thought the Core would have clued us in on the manufacturer but ..still no match.

I even wondered if a Jeweler might have tried to repair it at some point because of the damaged Beading

As far as the ?20? is concerned ?I spoke with an Engraver and was told that Roto-Engraving (like this) was common from the 40?s through the early 70?s when it was replaced by Laser Engraving . Remember , Roto-Engraving was also a style used on Gold Party Badges so ..it?s not a modern technique . The Laser leaves a clean cut devoid of any ?swirl marks? at the bottom of the cut. It is however still commonly used by Industrial Engravers who are not concerned about the ?swirl marks? . He also told me some Engravers still use this technique to remove large area , patterns or letters and then hand etch a grid pattern or fill the engraved area with Paint to hide the swirl-pattern . He felt it was not something the average person would do at home with a Dremel Tool .

If this was a mass produced reproduction ..would the faker take the time to engrave oversize numbers on them that don?t come anywhere near an original Zimmermann 20 ? If the faker did ..he?d have done it on more than one repro badge and I?m sure one of us would have seen another with similar engraving.

I bet it was done by some Collector or , maybe even as an inventory tracking number ..or possibly by someone back in the 60?s who WAS trying to infer the Cross was a Zimmermann?.back then our Hobby was still young and it would have been more acceptable .

But as I?ve said before ,the number alone is not enough reason to call this a fake ..unless someone out there comes up with other Badges with the same engraving.

This is a puzzle and ..It seems this Cross has can?t easily be written off or explained.

Any thoughts guys ?