A nice Baden medal bar

[saschaw]

Gentlemen, please take a look at this nice medal bar. It looks enormous fresh and new, but it seems old and kosher to me.

 

What do you think about it? And might the combination be traceable?

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm bliiiiiiiiiind!!!!! I can't see colllllllllllor !!!!

BZ3bX from 1870? BZ3bmE or BZ3amE?

Looks like a nice circa 1902 ex- dR officer's bar... someone in the civil service then?

[saschaw]

I don't know which Zähringer with oakleaves it is, but with 30 years in between to the 3bX for 1870 (not many awarded, by the way!) it should rather be a 3a in Gold ...

 

I don't know exactly because I don't have the bar. This it is, has anyone ever seen a photograph of a medal bar?! It's taken in 1905 in Karlsruhe ...

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by saschaw

[saschaw]

The same guy, some years earlier:

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by saschaw

[saschaw]

Once more him, again some years before. There were some more on ebay, but how to get all? It never works ... I can be glad that I got those three which make a nice set.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

That is WEIRD!!!!!

Maybe it was a "death portrait" of his medal bar taken before the parts that had to be returned were ripped off and sent back to the Orders Chancery?

NO NAME on all that? No way to tell regiment? Other than that he was a dR officer (interesting that he did NOT make his LD2 to medal bar pendant version)... ?

[saschaw]

Maybe it was a "death portrait" of his medal bar taken before the parts that had to be returned were ripped off and sent back to the Orders Chancery?

May be, I've no idea - the first and only "bar photo" I've ever seen. At it is the youngest photo of these five, so it may be the right idea. Without knowledge _who_ it is and when he died, no chance to be sure. No names on the pictures, nothing was said on the eBay auctions. I found just a date, "2. Oct. 87" on the oldest of these three. From the uniform it might be a Baden Infantry Rgt. 110 etc. - apparently not a Leib-Grenadier 109.

That is WEIRD!!!!!

I know, that's why this is one of my favourite photo groups: small but nice. Those two I didn't win on eBay, but at least can reunite them visually here in the thread. If they ever come up again, please tell me.

[Ulsterman]

Is there any chance at all we can make a number on his epalette?

The portrait and the picture of his son I'd bet are 1880-90.

The CDV is @ 1875 I reckon.

The DRK portrait must be @ 1895. When did the DRK issue uniforms like that?

We also know that between 1895-1905 (presumably a death date) he got his ZHLwith oaks....presumably for DRK work.

We might be able to narrow down a list of possibles frown the rank lists.

Edited February 1, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, we know he was a Karlsruhe guy.... NOT going to be in many rank Lists since he never got more than the LD2...

My first Baden Court and State Handbook is 1905.... which is probably when he died, so seeking in there likely won't help.

Hmm hmmm.

[saschaw]

Guys, please don't make too much affort for these. I don't need a _name_, I can see his career and this is actually enough. Maybe once the other puictures reappear and can be reunited, or other pictures come up ...

I'll check later for numbers on shoulder straps, but it's too blurry, I fear.

[saschaw]

If they ever come up again, please tell me.

Noone recognized it, noone told me - but uuuh, I can look for myself.

The lower photo did recently come up again, was sold for about the double price as before - and now to me. Reuniting sucks and costs much bucks, but it is not only a very nice photo but an even nicer set of matching ones. I cannot get the numbers(?) on his shoulderboards but his sabre is for Baden Infantry officers, while his helmet and tunic is not 109er "Leibgrenadier" - so no Karlsruhe unit but rather GR 110, IR 111, IR 112, IR 113, IR 114, IR 142, IR 169 or IR 170 - hope I didn't miss one. He was apparently not in a Karlsruhe unit but came here always for his photographs...

PS:

Now I'm still looking for his Red Cross portrait... ;)

[VtwinVince]

Ach du liebe Zeit, what a great bar. Early double BZL recipient, most unusual.

[saschaw]

My first Baden Court and State Handbook is 1905.... which is probably when he died, so seeking in there likely won't help.

I tried in the DOA 1904/05 and it was at least worth a try. I cross-checked BdZL3bX, BdFDA and BdRJM 1902 from Willi Geile's register of uncommon mentioned awards - those three are the only listed ones there from this group. I ended at nine persons (well, actually nine pages of the DOA) and checked those, but found noone that matches. The last entry was the closest, the only one with PrRKM3 - but to a Medizinalrat with EK2w and a Russian award. As well, not "my" guy.

Buuut... as we all know, not only many persons are missing in the DOA, some just mentioned some of their awards, "forgetting" stuff like jubilee medals. There might come times I have nothing to do and could check all BZL3bX, ignoring if they are listing BdRJM...

:cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

It is unfortunate there arre no DATES on the photos.

From the 1879 Rangliste ( Glenn) these are the ONLY infantry (you are sure of that branch?) officers dR or dL who had a BZ3bX for 1870 and no EK2 or other "visible" medal bar award.

Inf Rgt 113: SecLt dR RUOFF

Inf Rgt 114: SecLt dR SIEFERT

LIR 110: SecLt dL HAAS

LIR 111: SecLt dL HERRMANN and SecLt dL GRUMBACHER

LIR 113: PremLt dL BAUMANN (who also shows LD2) and SecLt dL DREHER

LIR 114: SecLt dL MAYER

and that's it--only 8 of them still serving in 1879.

Dressed up in his Red Cross outfit he looks the same age as in the bearded reserveofficer photos-- 1880s? Definitely not an old man, so NOT showing Red Cross Medal for these below probably means they can be eliminated-- though the Orders Almanac listings are FULL of errors!!!!----

Oberregierungsrat Robert RUOFF is in the 1908/09 Orders Almanac: BZ3amE, BZ3bX, Bd FDA, Bd LD2, Bd 1902 RJM, 70/71 and 1897 but no PrRKM3-- otherwise a PERFECT match. Born in Waldshut 1848 and living in Karlsruhe.

Professor Oberforstrat SIEFERT it cannot be-- BZ3aE, BZ3bX, Bd FDA, Pr LD2, Bd 1902 RJM, 70/71, 1897 BUT-- ?EK3.

?? Brauereibesitzer in Wertheim, "Lt aD" (so him or an ex-regular?) Christ. HAAS (b. Wertheim 21.2.47) shows only BZ3X, 70/71 and 1897-- no Bd FDA !!!

M?hlenbesitzer Wittlingen u Landtag Abgeordneter Karl DREHER is listed in the same with BZ3a, BZ3bX, Bd FDA, Bd 1902 RJM, 70/71, and 1897.

:beer:

[saschaw]

Thank you, Rick. The DOA is such a bad reference, though the one and only for much stuff...

Did many miss to notice the Oaks on their Z?hringer?! At least "my" Major Uhlenhaut (other bar) missed to. No idea how many did that mistake. Surely many didn't mention Baden and or Prussian 1870 medal, or 1902 jubilee. Anyway, I guss any Baden ex-officer alive in 1902 get that.

Not all pictures are undated: the oldest one has "2. Oct. 87" on it's back while the bar pictures is from 1905. The others seem all to be pre 1895 as there's nothing on 1870 medal's ribbon, and - did anyone notice he had his bar resewn between the CDV and the two big ones? No new awards on the bar, though a change from trapzoid ribbon to bow ribbons - makes the CDV the older one. With the oldest picture being from 1887, not much space for the time frame for the three undated pictures - but that's no help at all as at this point, he's not in anymore rank list, presumably disappering in the end 70s.

I'm quite sure about infantry: that the Baden infantry officer saber and the helmet (if all gilt) is Baden infantry officer too - the Waffenrock seems to match either. Pionier-Bataillon 14 hat the same helmet (but all silver), but another Wafenrock while any other Waffengattung would have different helmets. Not much help... so he's one of the guys you mentioned or even disappeared pre 1879 from the rank lists, right?

PS:

is all that you're listing from 1908 DOA? We were thinking he might have died in 1905...

PPS:

NONE of those guys with BdZL3bX should have an BADEN LW - those were introduced in 1877 and given to NCOs only! Presumably one more mistake...

Edited January 3, 2009 by saschaw

[saschaw]

Your SecLt dL HERRMANN from LIR 111 must be the Fabrikant from Karlsruhe, in DOA 1904 with BdZL3bX, D70/71 and PrZM. Unlikely to be him without BdZL3aE and PrRKM3.

 

I found a GRUMBACHER who's not listing an BdZL3bX but BdZL3a, BdFDA, BdS(sic!)ErZ1870/71, BdRJM, D70/71 and PrZM. Odd, should be "your" guy, isn't it? Otto, Rechtsanwalt beim Ober-Landesgericht, born 1848 and living in Karlsruhe, Akademiestraße... not him.

 

An Adalbert BAUMANN, Oberbaurat, again no BdZL3bX, but BdZL3aE, BdFDA, D1870/71, PrEK2, PrLD2, PrZM - but a Württemberg crown order 2c and an Austrian merit cross... Absolutely not him, but an odd and interresting combination.

 

Once more BAUMANN, now a Karl: Gymnasialproffesor with BdZL3a, BdFDA and PrLD2 - who foolishly again misses half of his stuff. Had for sure additional "D70/71" and "PrZM". Sure, not him. Actually I don't know why I'm listing him...

 

DREHER is as well in 1904/05, there yet without BdRJM - though awarded at least a year before he sent his informations to the DOA people...

Missing oaks and the PrRKM3. Might be him, who knows... Though, alive in 1908 doesn't fit to our guy who might have been passing away in 1905. If he did.

 

Now Mayer...

Edited July 19, 2022 by saschaw

[saschaw]

I forgot to mention: no "Mayer" with such decorations in DOA 1904/05.

:(